Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

[Peter de Groot]

It will be better because unlike Impossible Ferrania do not have to invent new emulsions. Most stuff for e-6 or c41 is still available whereas Impossible needed to invent new ways to produce color since some key components were not made anymore or have become illegal to use.

 

[AgX]

Impossible were given key components. It was not their effort to overcome a major threshhold.

 

[Peter de Groot]

Do tell me more. From what I have been told is that the plants that used to make the chamicals for the integral film where demolished in 2005 and the chemicals ran out in 2008. So that means they had to figure out which new chems to use and how that would effect the mix. Basically it is starting from scratch in in 4 years the have come a long way.

 

[AgX]

They did not figure it out. They were not even interested in re-starting the plant.

That all is just part of their storytelling.

 

[ME Super]

I think we need to manage our expectations a little at the beginning. There is a tendency to think that the customer is still king and is always still right no matter what. But expecting Ferrania to initially give us better E-6 than Fuji, and/or at a lower price point, and possibly in a gazillion formats, and a new color negative film right away as well, might be asking for the impossible.

If we hold them to such a standard right out of the gate, they may never reach critical mass and just be forced to throw in the towel. Then what do we do a year later when Fuji shuts down all color film manufacturing?

Better I think to be a little more patient. And be willing to initially pay what is required to keep them moving forward as a viable long-term option to Fuji. Part of the definition of extinct includes the principle of a very long time.

I also worry about Adox in this same respect. Everyone wants cheap, cheap, cheap. Mirko has written here on several occasions bemoaning the fact that some of his plans for future films are on hold because no one wants to pay what is required to bring them to market. Sometimes I wonder how long he can keep going as well.

Be careful what you ask for...

Ken

Touche. I see your point, Ken. I buy the Agfa Aviphot Chrome from Wittner because it's a faster film, even though it's significantly grainier than Fuji's offerings. But the grain of the Agfa doesn't bother me, so if they can get close to Agfa/Wittner's quality, and can survive the smaller marketplace at a price point I can afford, I think we're good.

 

[Roger Cole]

I think he/she meant a 400 speed C-41 when they said that.

I don't think so - I was talking about the price of Provia 400X when the fact they never said they were going to produce a 400 speed E6 was brought up. If they ever said they were going to produce a C41 film at all I missed that. I thought it was one of those "might be in the future" things but I could have easily missed it.

 

[Roger Cole]

And I bet not one of you here will pay $15 for a roll of Ferrania film - more than once.

You seem to be saying it will suck. Weren't they also going to improve it?

For a 100 slide film it would have to be really exceptional in some way to pay 50% more than Fuji, though if it matched, say, Astia in color, contrast and grain I would (that would count as "really exceptional.") I don't expect that however, nor do I really expect it to cost $15.

If they produced an 800 slide film that was even "fairly good if rather grainy" then I'd pay that and buy more.

 

[Roger Cole]

I think we need to manage our expectations a little at the beginning. There is a tendency to think that the customer is still king and is always still right no matter what. But expecting Ferrania to initially give us better E-6 than Fuji, and/or at a lower price point, and possibly in a gazillion formats, and a new color negative film right away as well, might be asking for the impossible.

If we hold them to such a standard right out of the gate, they may never reach critical mass and just be forced to throw in the towel. Then what do we do a year later when Fuji shuts down all color film manufacturing?

Better I think to be a little more patient. And be willing to initially pay what is required to keep them moving forward as a viable long-term option to Fuji. Part of the definition of extinct includes the principle of a very long time.

I also worry about Adox in this same respect. Everyone wants cheap, cheap, cheap. Mirko has written here on several occasions bemoaning the fact that some of his plans for future films are on hold because no one wants to pay what is required to bring them to market. Sometimes I wonder how long he can keep going as well.

Be careful what you ask for...

Ken

Well said and I understand your concern.

I will pay more, within reason, for a film that does something or gets me results I want that I can't get with other film. I haven't tried the new Adox 100 for example though I applaud them for making it. I'm quite happy with FP4+ and Acros - Acros in rolls is competitively priced, in sheets it's kind of silly but the lack of reciprocity failure means it does something no other film really does so those who need that pay what it costs (I don't, so far anyway, but I like the look in 120.) There are also TMX and Delta 100. The market for 100 speed black and white films is already saturated, and at lower prices than the new Adox film.

If I'm going to pay a really premium price I need to get in exchange for that something I can't get elsewhere for a lot less. I think that's going to be true for many people. Even so there are some prices that are just too high, like the proposed replacement for type 55 P/N. I'd love to shoot some of that - but the price they're talking is just going to be prohibitive for many people who don't have specific commercial applications for it where they can recoup that.

 

[wblynch]

You seem to be saying it will suck.

sorry it wasn't my intention. I have the best hopes and regards for Ferrania and want them to succeed and have an exciting new manufacturer for the future of color film.

I'm just thinking we need to temper our expectatitions.

It will be a miracle enough if they can get operational and grind out any film at all. And I have promised to buy 20 rolls of 126 on day one. -within reason

 

[Xmas]

One cannot compare the current $ price of film with tomorrows $ cause they are dumping master rolls cause volume is still falling like a stone.

Agfa Vista is still 1.00 GBP here and on most high streets 50-100 in a box on bottom shelf. I don't think it is fast moving. The pharmacy next door has BW400CN at 7.99 but that is history or soon will be?

Ferrani will be in same boat as Fotokemia we don't buy it we wont have it tomorrow. Kodak and Fuji are stuck in exit door.

There is a lot of impossible film being shot here.

 

[Peter de Groot]

Do tell me more. From what I have been told is that the plants that used to make the chamicals for the integral film where demolished in 2005 and the chemicals ran out in 2008. So that means they had to figure out which new chems to use and how that would effect the mix. Basically it is starting from scratch in in 4 years the have come a long way.

This topic is about Ferrania but it is interesting. So if they were not interested in re-starting the plant why did they do it? You can answer me in a pm so we don't spoil this topic.

 

[TheToadMen]

... Ferrani will be in same boat as Fotokemia we don't buy it we wont have it tomorrow. Kodak and Fuji are stuck in exit door. There is a lot of impossible film being shot here.

Just a silly thought maybe, but who is "we" in this equation (or this thread) about what kind of film "we" are willing to buy for what price?

I'm guessing but I think in this context "we" is a group of analogue photographers who (say to) dislike digital for many reasons and keep using good (old) cameras that use film for good reasons in itself (no pun or criticism intended so don't shoot me).
"We" is a group of people who (mostly) still remember the good old days with a lot of choice in beautiful cameras and also good films, available even at the supermarket. (I still miss Agfa Scala and DrChrome is an ocean away for me).

But: is this "we" a large enough group to make the business case for Ferrani? We have freezers stuffed full with the "good stuff from the old days" and compare everything with the highest quality there ever was with prices from the mass-market-days. We'll buy one rol for good will and then turn back to our freezers (a bit cynical, I know).
But: there is a whole group of "new" people discovering film photography for the first time in their live, that are willing to pay severely for this unique possibility of lifestyle. Look at Lomography,com for instance. They sell whatever in "poor" quality (at least to us APUG people who knew the real stuff in those days) with great marketing skills. Look at the succes of their Petzval gimmick. And talking about expensive film: would you be willing to pay Euro 9.90 (USD 12.90) for a color film of 12 exposures (yep: only 12) that promises to $@&$%*# up every negative like this on purpose?

But Lomography,com does and there seems to be a big market for it (Nnot my cup of tea). Don't believe me? See: Revolog12 exp. Texture and Revolog 12 exp. Tesla 1.
And if you like your flashes to be read instead of white, use: Revolog 12 exp. Tesla 2.

My point is: the world has changed. Not only are there less original (pre-digital) analogue photographers like here on APUG, but there is also a whole new group of film users with a whole other book of reference for fun & photography. They're in it for fun, not so much for quality. And it seems this second group is bigger than the original APUG folks. Neither group is better then the other, mind you, but from a business point I would wise (being Ferrani) to also look at this new group first. They seem to be willing to pay more for less, if you look at the business success of lomography.com and Holga ...
It might be that Ferrani doesn't have to compete with Provia 100 shot in a Nikon F, Hass X-pan, but with Lomo-film shot in a Holga with a purple flash filter or something like that. They will look at us too, I believe, but we're only a (smaller) part of the business case.

BTW: I recently spoke to a guy who runs a photo store in a bigger city in Holland. He still offers 135 mm and 120 roll film besides the digital stuff, but he said the main income from his store is from selling this Fuji Instant stuff nowadays.
Go figure ...

Bert from Holland

 

[pdeeh]

Well said, Bert

 

[RattyMouse]

BTW: I recently spoke to a guy who runs a photo store in a bigger city in Holland. He still offers 135 mm and 120 roll film besides the digital stuff, but he said the main income from his store is from selling this Fuji Instant stuff nowadays.
Go figure ...

Bert from Holland

I think a lot of people here underestimate the success Fujifilm has had with their INSTAX line of film. I wonder, does the fact that Fujifilm makes a lot of money from this product in some way ensure that they will be able to continue other films? In other words, does all the volume from INSTAX help keep their other films, at least some of them, feasible? Or are they too different to help keep some efficiency of scale?

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

But: is this "we" a large enough group to make the business case for Ferrani?

You're missing an "a" there.

Lomography users are shrinking as they move on from the novelty factor and the "effects" oriented photography.
They are moving from "lo-fi" to "hi-fi", just like children grow up to aspire to do "adult" things.
The proof is Lomo shops are closing down and they can't shift (sell) most of their stock without a sale or 2.
But, perhaps Bert is right and we are just seeing a shift from "street presence" to Online only.
Granted they have a good marketing: there's not a single week I don't get an email from them enticing me to some promo for a new camera or lens or film. How effective are those promotions, it is anyone's guess.

 

[RattyMouse]

Back to Ferrania, on their web site they write:

"We aim for nothing less than fundamentally changing the way you buy, use and process film today.

Most importantly, we aim to restore confidence in the future of analog film.

Our philosophy is simple:
We are people who love film, you are people who love film, and people have the power. So let's do this!"

Folks, THIS Is how you market film. THIS is how you inspire confidence in analogue photography.

Ferrania, I WILL buy your film.

 

[TheToadMen]

Back to Ferrania, on their web site they write:
"We aim for nothing less than fundamentally changing the way you buy, use and process film today.
Most importantly, we aim to restore confidence in the future of analog film.
Our philosophy is simple:
We are people who love film, you are people who love film, and people have the power. So let's do this!"
Folks, THIS Is how you market film. THIS is how you inspire confidence in analogue photography.
Ferrania, I WILL buy your film.

Quite right!
But I do hope they'll explain soon what they mean with "fundamentally changing the way you buy, use and process film" though I'm very curious what they're planning.

If in any way possible, I'll join too.

BTW: Ferrania posted a nice short film from 1940 about the producing process of Ferrania, see:
Dead Link Removed

[video=vimeo;103156435]http://vimeo.com/103156435[/video]

 

[Xmas]

I think a lot of people here underestimate the success Fujifilm has had with their INSTAX line of film. I wonder, does the fact that Fujifilm makes a lot of money from this product in some way ensure that they will be able to continue other films? In other words, does all the volume from INSTAX help keep their other films, at least some of them, feasible? Or are they too different to help keep some efficiency of scale?

Impossible only do impossible and I see a lotta shooters so instant has a user community likely to grow mainly cause C41 is dying as the time to get a print is getting longer.

If the profit on 'other' films is there and it is the same lines yes but conventional film sales are still falling.

35 mm film had things common with 120, 220,127 etc. coating plant, etc. but at a given volume 127 and 220 died. Even with the commonality. eg Plusx, TMAX3200, BW400CN only needed different kettle and coating runs and different printing on packing.

Not enough profit in splitting or finishing and eg 220 people would just shift to 120 anyway... so no real loss in being last company to stop 220, sort off.

The resellers need to see a profit or they don't take the risk if they dont want to buy a film in 220 then it won't get made.

If sales drop to 10% from a baseline 100% then resellers buy a lot less.

Fuji instant packs, Instax and eg Acros may not even be made at same location.

Some of the instant pack films have been stopped resently.

If Fuji stop Acros it is unlikely to affect Instax profit, is the other side of the coin. Resellers might buy more Instax, they have the cash they might have spent on Acros.

Send a PM to Simon asking for a colour XP2+ option very likely he says no sorry without prejudice.

 

[wblynch]

The best color print films ever made are still available today. If we buy them they will stay.

 

[Xmas]

Just a silly thought maybe, but who is "we" in this equation (or this thread) about what kind of film "we" are willing to buy for what price?

I'm guessing but I think in this context "we" is a group of analogue photographers who (say to) dislike digital for many reasons and keep using good (old) cameras that use film for good reasons in itself (no pun or criticism intended so don't shoot me).
"We" is a group of people who (mostly) still remember the good old days with a lot of choice in beautiful cameras and also good films, available even at the supermarket. (I still miss Agfa Scala and DrChrome is an ocean away for me).

But: is this "we" a large enough group to make the business case for Ferrani? We have freezers stuffed full with the "good stuff from the old days" and compare everything with the highest quality there ever was with prices from the mass-market-days. We'll buy one rol for good will and then turn back to our freezers (a bit cynical, I know).
But: there is a whole group of "new" people discovering film photography for the first time in their live, that are willing to pay severely for this unique possibility of lifestyle. Look at Lomography,com for instance. They sell whatever in "poor" quality (at least to us APUG people who knew the real stuff in those days) with great marketing skills. Look at the succes of their Petzval gimmick. And talking about expensive film: would you be willing to pay Euro 9.90 (USD 12.90) for a color film of 12 exposures (yep: only 12) that promises to $@&$%*# up every negative like this on purpose?
View attachment 93560 View attachment 93562
But Lomography,com does and there seems to be a big market for it (Nnot my cup of tea). Don't believe me? See: Revolog12 exp. Texture and Revolog 12 exp. Tesla 1.
And if you like your flashes to be read instead of white, use: Revolog 12 exp. Tesla 2.

My point is: the world has changed. Not only are there less original (pre-digital) analogue photographers like here on APUG, but there is also a whole new group of film users with a whole other book of reference for fun & photography. They're in it for fun, not so much for quality. And it seems this second group is bigger than the original APUG folks. Neither group is better then the other, mind you, but from a business point I would wise (being Ferrani) to also look at this new group first. They seem to be willing to pay more for less, if you look at the business success of lomography.com and Holga ...
It might be that Ferrani doesn't have to compete with Provia 100 shot in a Nikon F, Hass X-pan, but with Lomo-film shot in a Holga with a purple flash filter or something like that. They will look at us too, I believe, but we're only a (smaller) part of the business case.

BTW: I recently spoke to a guy who runs a photo store in a bigger city in Holland. He still offers 135 mm and 120 roll film besides the digital stuff, but he said the main income from his store is from selling this Fuji Instant stuff nowadays.
Go figure ...

Bert from Holland

All your model is all too apt.

We is you or me or anyone else.

If Ferrania sell via resellers we includes them as well.

For an interval I bought and used Photokemia's bread and butter film I'd a payed more but they stopped manufacture.

I went (back )to next cheapest variously Double-X, APX100, APX400S, Fomapan400, Kentmere, I don't buy forward merely fridge stuff people give me or stock remaindered. I've only bought Tri-x in 220 after cancel notice never used Plusx or Panatomicx - never got it cheap.

Ferrani may be planning on 8 and 16mm movie low volumes with strange finishing, but willing to finish in 35mm as well. If they can make a profit at low volume they may stay in business long term.

If it is the last E6 film it's price point is not dependent on other film but digital.

E6 is pretty difficult for labs - for me as post/mail not an option but I can drop off or scratch mix E6 soups.

PS
My chum was given a Russar last year now he has a collectible pre Lomo model to sell. It is an ok lens in original form but a CV 21mm is cheaper.
My Helios 28 mm was cheap hoping Lomo repackage that too. But the other example is Kodak and Fuji sell film dear...

 

[Roger Cole]

The best color print films ever made are still available today. If we buy them they will stay.

Now THAT we agree about.

 

[miha]

Are they? Well, not in all formats. I also miss Ektapress from Kodak and NPZ from Fuji among others.

 

[Prest_400]

I think a lot of people here underestimate the success Fujifilm has had with their INSTAX line of film. I wonder, does the fact that Fujifilm makes a lot of money from this product in some way ensure that they will be able to continue other films? In other words, does all the volume from INSTAX help keep their other films, at least some of them, feasible? Or are they too different to help keep some efficiency of scale?

Even though the line of production is separated from still film, it is very interesting the sucess that instant is having. And it was supposed to die due to digital... but the very quirkiness of integral instant film is what makes it successful.
I can't deny those things seem very fun, I'm resisting the temptation of picking one.

For long I acknowledged that their upcoming film won't be technically superior to Kodak's or Fuji's offerings; For obvious reason as both invested brutal amounts into R&D! However, I hope they are quite good and with the particular approach they take they will fulfill the niche.
Cine must be missing E6, and it's critical they establish themselves.

As of Lomo, I don't know if they have a "proper" slide film left in their (rebranded) lineup. Perhaps Ferrania might end supplying/rebranding film with Lomo.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

The best color print films ever made are still available today. If we buy them they will stay.

If you're referring to Kodak's current color negative films, that's a fantasy. No matter how much "we" buy, future availability of those films is 100% dependent on Hollywood continuing to pacify some directors by purchasing motion picture film it really doesn't want. When that ends, you might find color negative still films labeled "Kodak," but they'll be sourced somewhere else and have no connection to the ones available today.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Sal nails it.

Good faith positive thinking, although admirable in itself, will have absolutely nothing to do with the final outcome. While it might feel good to believe otherwise, the reality is that forces far more powerful than all of us adding a few extra rolls per year will end up determining EK/KA's film future.

Go Ferrania...

Ken