Film development and paper grades

[wiggywag]

Hi!

I wonder if +1 film development corresponds with one grade contrast change on paper?

I need to increase contrast of my negatives so they print well in grade 2-2.5, since they always end in grade 3-4 when I print now. Will +1 development do the trick?

I believe different papers need different negative development to match the grades for printing. Any advice on a standard way to go about this?

Thanks!

 

[sandholm]

Hi,

I have a hard time thinking that +1 stop in film development will be +1 grade in the enlarger. First why dont you like to print them using grade 3-4? If the print is good, well, then its good, no matter if you print it on 4 or 2. If you want to control your contrast, then you have to use the Zone system (or any other system that lets you control the contrast, but the zone system is the easiest). Its not hard, but you need to do some test, use one film, one developer and develop EXACTLY the same way. When you have nailed it down, you can start playing with film or developer (I use 3 films, but always the same developer and developer procedure).

Try to get hold of The Practical Zone System: For Film and Digital Photography written by Chris Johnson ( http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Zon...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284208706&sr=8-1 ) its the best book to learn the Zone system. I teach the zone system at our local photo club (both for film and digital) and this book is usually really appreciated by the people taking the course. It take some test roles but you will soon dialed in the contrast and dynamic range.

cheers

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Compensating for subject contrast through film development is very similar to compensating for negative contrast with variable-contrast (VC) papers. This does not mean that VC papers have replaced the Zone System altogether. The Zone System delivers a perfect negative, and VC papers are very tolerant of less than perfect negatives. But, when used to get the most out of a mediocre negative, VC papers leave less room to adjust for local image-contrast needs. However, when used together, Zone System and variable-contrast papers provide more creative flexibility than either one possibly could alone. For a fine-art printer, this is not an either/or decision. Both are powerful tools in their own right.

As I said, both methods are similar but not the same, because they depend on non-linear characteristic curves. Modifying the film curve through development can never be precisely matches by the interaction of a film and paper characteristic curve when working with contrast filtration, but the differences may be small.

One more point: I assume you are talking filter numbers when your are saying 'grade 2.5'. Filter numbers roughly correlate to ISO contrast grades, but they are different, paper dependent and often a full grade off.

In short, you can simulate film development with contrast filtration up to a point, but a rule such as, N+1 = 'one grade more' or 'the next filter number' cannot be made, even approximation would be paper and filter dependent. Anyway, you get the most printing flexibility by creating a 'perfect' negative first, which then leaves you the whole spectrum of contrast filtration to work with to optimize a print.

 

[wiggywag]

Hi,

I have a hard time thinking that +1 stop in film development will be +1 grade in the enlarger. First why dont you like to print them using grade 3-4? If the print is good, well, then its good, no matter if you print it on 4 or 2. If you want to control your contrast, then you have to use the Zone system (or any other system that lets you control the contrast, but the zone system is the easiest). Its not hard, but you need to do some test, use one film, one developer and develop EXACTLY the same way. When you have nailed it down, you can start playing with film or developer (I use 3 films, but always the same developer and developer procedure).

Try to get hold of The Practical Zone System: For Film and Digital Photography written by Chris Johnson ( http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Zon...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284208706&sr=8-1 ) its the best book to learn the Zone system. I teach it at our local photo club (both film and digital) and this book helps 95% of the once taking the course. It take some test roles but you will soon dialed in the contrast and dynamic range.

cheers

Hi!

I would like my prints to "normally" end up in grade 2-2.5 with the main exposure to make sure my negatives are most flexible to work with. And I believe since grade 2 is in the middle of the grades on VC paper, thats what I should aim for.

I am familiar with the zone system and use it already, I just need to translate them into paper grades

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... I would like my prints to "normally" end up in grade 2-2.5 with the main exposure to make sure my negatives are most flexible to work with. And I believe since grade 2 is in the middle of the grades on VC paper, thats what I should aim for. ...

Yes, and you do this all with film exposure and development, not with paper contrast.

... I am familiar with the zone system and use it already, I just need to translate them into paper grades

Mission impossible, two different kettle of fish!

 

[wiggywag]

Yes, and you do this all with film exposure and development, not with paper contrast.

Mission impossible, two different kettle of fish!

That answers my question.

I know you are using Tmax 400 as I am too. Im using xtol as developer, any idea of how much I should increase development time to get a better match with my paper, taking into account I would like to print at 1.5 grade lower than Im doing today (+ 10% +20% ?)

I understand from your arguments that I can't translate grades the way I asked for. But if you know my film and developer, you probably have an idea. Thanks

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Here is a simple technique, which will improve picture quality significantly and does not require any testing at all. Use it if you dislike testing with a passion, or if you just don’t have the time for a test at the moment. This method can also be used to give a new film a test drive and compare it to the one you are using now.

For a normal contrast, bright but cloudy day, cut the manufacturer’s recommended film speed by 2/3 stop (i.e. ISO 400/27° becomes ISO 250/25°) and the recommended development time by 15%. The increased exposure will boost the shadow detail, and the reduced development time will prevent the highlights from becoming too dense. For a high-contrast, bright and sunny day, increase the exposure by an additional 2/3 stop (i.e., ISO 400/27° now becomes ISO 160/23°) and reduce the development time by a total of 30%. Stick to the ‘box speed’ and suggested development time for images taken on a low-contrast, rainy or foggy day.

A negative processed this way will easily print with a diffusion enlarger on grade-2 or 2.5 papers. Just give it a try. It is really that simple to make a significant improvement to negative and image quality.

 

[Stephen Benskin]

Hi!

I wonder if +1 film development corresponds with one grade contrast change on paper?

I need to increase contrast of my negatives so they print well in grade 2-2.5, since they always end in grade 3-4 when I print now. Will +1 development do the trick?

I believe different papers need different negative development to match the grades for printing. Any advice on a standard way to go about this?

Thanks!

Processing the film +1 will allow you to print around a grade lower paper all things being equal; however, I believe the grade LERs were chosen more to compensate for different subject Luminance ranges with normal development.

As you say you are constantly having to print on a grade 3 and 4 paper, I'm thinking it's the processing and not the subject Luminance range. So, you don't need to process +1, but correctly process to Normal (which may be around a stop more than where you are).

To answer the question about film processing having a correlation with paper grades or subject Luminance ranges correlating with paper grades, I've included an attachment.

A quick review on grades - diffusion enlarger:
Grade 1 = LER 1.15 to 1.40
Grade 2 = LER 0.95 to 1.14
Grade 3 = LER 0.80 to 0.94
Grade 4 = LER 0.65 to 0.79

The proof uses the basic equation Desired Negative Density Range (Paper LER) divided by the subject Luminance range - flare equals the desired Contrast Index. For simplicity sake, I've used a fixed flare model, which doesn't exactly represent reality, so you need to account for some slope in the values for the pluses and minuses.

The last column, I believe, is the way the paper LER values were determined. A normal scene has a Luminance range of 2.2 or 7 1/3 stops. A one stop change in the Luminance Range up or down equals a difference of 0.30. A scene that is one stop flatter has a luminance range of 1.9. A scene that is one stop more contrasty has a luminance range of 2.5.

The last column represents the resulting negative density ranges using the same processing but having different scene luminance ranges. The resulting NDR values line up closely with the centers of the different paper grade LERs.

The first column represents the what the CI would have to be for an the average scene Luminance range in order to produce a particular NDR or LER. If you are printing mostly on grade three for scenes that have a normal Luminance range, then your processing probably falls around CI 0.46 (example 3). This is why I think you are under processing and why I recommend re-evaluating what you consider Normal processing.

The middle column calculates the CI required to produce a negative that will print on a grade two for different scene Luminance ranges and a fix flare value. Except for Normal and +1 process, the fit doesn't match but it's close. Close enough to say that a +1 increase in processing can approximate a one grade change.

While it's not included with the example, a variable flare model has a closer match with the longer scene Luminance ranges than the fixed flare model, but not as close with the shorter.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Try to get hold of The Practical Zone System: For Film and Digital Photography written by Chris Johnson ( http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Zon...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284208706&sr=8-1 ) its the best book to learn the Zone system. I teach the zone system at our local photo club (both for film and digital) and this book is usually really appreciated by the people taking the course. It take some test roles but you will soon dialed in the contrast and dynamic range.

Better you should get Ralph W. Lambrecht's book Way Beyond Monochrome, second addition! www.waybeyondmonochrome.com He is an APUG member who has given advice for free here for years.

Another cheap plug supplied by Sirius Glass.
http://www.waybeyondmonochrome.com/

 

[A49]

I know you are using Tmax 400 as I am too. Im using xtol as developer, any idea of how much I should increase development time to get a better match with my paper, taking into account I would like to print at 1.5 grade lower than Im doing today (+ 10% +20% ?)

Here in this tech pub for Tmax 400 http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4043/f4043.pdf
you can look up for different development procedures and Xtol (and Xtol 1+1) how the contrast index increases with longer development time.

An increase of the contrast index of about 0.1 should bring about one paper grade less. This is my rough estimation that comes from the difference of the recommended contrast index for diffuser enlargers (0.56) and for condenser enlargers (0.45) Their difference is 0.11. I own both, an enlarger diffuser and a condenser head, and I know, that if I change from the first to the condenser, then I have about one grade more contrast in my pictures, the same as if I would change the paper grade to one grade higher. So I roughly estimate that 1 paper grade difference corresponds with 0.1 difference in contrast index.

So far my rough estimation. Look up for how you have to change the development time, when you want 0.1 contrast index more and start a test. You may need a second test, if you are still too far from your prefered grade 2-2.5, but then the problem should be solved.

Andreas

 

[Anon Ymous]

I agree with what Andreas says, a Contrast Index equal to 0,45 gives me fine results with my condenser enlarger and prints nicely at about grade 2. Keep in mind though that in this case, you'd better downrate your film by about a stop, so shoot TMY2 at EI200. I use this CI for bright sunny days, while in cloudy days I'll shoot at box speed (EI400) and process for CI = 0,56. In other words, the recommended time.

 

[Steve Smith]

For a normal contrast, bright but cloudy day, cut the manufacturer’s recommended film speed by 2/3 stop (i.e. ISO 400/27° becomes ISO 250/25°) and the recommended development time by 15%.

I used to use Ralph's method myself for HP5+ except that I used to expose an extra stop and reduce development time by about 20%. It does work and doesn't need any serious testing (charts, densitometers, etc.) other than trying it to see if you like it.

In low contrast scenes i.e. dull overcast days I found that it was better to expose for the stated speed of the film and use normal development.


Sreve.

 

[2F/2F]

Hi!

I wonder if +1 film development corresponds with one grade contrast change on paper?

I need to increase contrast of my negatives so they print well in grade 2-2.5, since they always end in grade 3-4 when I print now. Will +1 development do the trick?

I believe different papers need different negative development to match the grades for printing. Any advice on a standard way to go about this?

Thanks!

Hi,

N+1 film development should correspond roughly to what you would get by printing on paper with a filter one grade higher. However, it will not look exactly the same. Contrast index (the difference between the whites and the blacks) may be the same in the end, but IME the details look a little different.

If your negatives are routinely needing to be printed on grades 3 or 4 after being shot in average-contrast lighting, it does not mean that you should be giving N+1 or N+2 development. It means that you are now giving N-1 or N-2 development, and you need to find what is "N" for you. So, regardless of what you call it, you need "more" development. However, if you need this to achieve a normal level of contrast in the first place, then it is said that you are not developing an N plus anything; you are simply developing for N. That is what "N" means, after all.

Of course, we cannot say whether or not your negatives truly need more development to achieve a normal level of contrast, because we don't know the luminance ranges (or "subject brightness ranges") you are exposing. I suggest shooting a test subject with a known and fixed luminance range to find out what development results in normal contrast for you, and learn to examine the luminance ranges of what you are shooting (either with a meter or by eye, but always with something). Without knowing the rough range of the light you shot in, you cannot precisely judge your negatives for over or under development.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

10% increase will get one grade lower contrast paper.

Just make 6 exposures and cut off 12" of film and develope/print it.

Home formulas simply don`t work as you don`t have a densitometer to measure anything. So the test is appropiate and how I have done it for decades.
It also takes all the variables out.

 

[piu58]

If your negatives are routinely needing to be printed on grades 3 or 4 after being shot in average-contrast lighting, it does not mean that you should be giving N+1 or N+2 development. It means that you are now giving N-1 or N-2 development, and you need to find what is "N" for you. So, regardless of what you call it, you need "more" development. However, if you need this to achieve a normal level of contrast in the first place, then it is said that you are not developing an N plus anything; you are simply developing for N. That is what "N" means, after all.

I want to explain it slightly different.
The zone system and the control of development is aimed to use the capability of the film the record a special range of light. It has nothing to do with your feeling how the image should look like. It may be that you develop the film to "N", and you often need paper grade 3 or 4 - because you want to show harsh or pronounced texture. You will have a lot of work with dodging and burning then, but you get an image which covers your imagination.
If you'd develop the film longer to get more contrast in the negative, the lights will come out far to dense. And no burning will bring them back.

Or shortly: It may be right if you use paper grade 3 or 4 regularly. To develop a film so that paper grade 2 is right means: Without largish manipulation the film should give a "normal" image using this grade.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Piu 58,

I beg to differ.

Although the Zone System (and any other exposure/development system for that matter) aims for "correctly" exposed and developed negatives, the original purpose for developing the Zone System was as a tool for visualizing the final print. Fitting the contrast range of the scene onto the negative is just Zone System 101, i.e., only the first step. The real advantage of the system is that it allows you to better tailor the negative to your vision of what the final print should look like.

Therefore, if, as in your example, you want a to "show harsh or pronounced texture." You should be taking this into account when exposing the negative and deciding on development and paper grade (BTW, I usually indicate targeted paper grade on my exposure record).

And, at the time of exposure, you will know that you will "have a lot of work with dodging and burning then." However, the better you know your materials, more you will be able to refine exposure and development and anticipate what problems achieving your visualized print will entail.

And, to address the OP and to add to Ralph's and others' excellent comments.
As mentioned, "N" development (which you arrive at for your particular situation) is arrived at by testing. Once you have this, a scene of "Normal" contrast will print on what you have chosen for your "Normal" contrast grade (as you can see, it gets a bit arbitrary... maybe you shoot roll film and want grade 3 as "Normal," maybe, for sheet film, you want grade 2 or 2.5 for "Normal.")

Thereafter, N+ and N- exposure and development schemes are calibrated (by testing) so that scenes of lesser or greater contrast print well on your "Normal" contrast paper. The Zone System has a margin of error of approximately one "N number" i.e., one Zone (no need for N+1/3 or N- 1 1/2...). Fine tuning within this margin of error is done by contrast control when printing, either by changing grade or development or both.

So, to finally get around to your question: N+1 is not usually the same as one contrast grade of paper. That is to say, if you have two identical negatives and you process one at N development and it prints well on grade 3 paper, developing the other at N+1 will not necessarily enable you to get the same print from grade 2 paper.

The whole purpose of N+1 was to get the original negative to yield a print on your "Normal" contrast paper, which is something different.

Also, if you take three identical negatives and develop them N, N+1 and N-1 (having made the appropriate exposure compensation at the time of exposure), you will find differences in prints from the neg developed N and made on grade 2 paper, the N+1 negative printed on grade 1 and the N-1 neg printed on grade 3. These differences, depending on your materials, can be significantly different in contrast and will certainly be different in terms of how the contrast range in the negative is spread out over the tonal scale of the paper.

If your negatives are consistently not printing well on you chosen "Normal" paper, you need to adjust your development to compensate. The aim is to get close to perfect negatives (within the one-Zone margin of error) so you don't end up with lots of negatives that need extreme contrast grades (even though all of us have a few of those from time to time...). In your case, you would need to increase development to increase contrast. However, that is not moving from N to N+1; there is no "standard" N+1; it all depends on your situation and materials and must be personally tested. Your question, "Will +1 development do the trick?" presupposes some kind of N+1 standard and is, therefore, based on a false premise.

Finally, yes, different papers have slightly different contrast ranges and tonal distributions for the "same" paper grade; all grade 2s are not the same. However, these differences are usually well within the one-Zone margin of error built into the Zone System. Small refinements like these are what contrast control during printing is for. And, there is no real standard way to compensate for these small differences in contrast except through the art of printing. (Although, you can use them to your advantage; a print that is a bit soft on one grade 2 paper often has just the right amount of extra zip on another grade 2 paper.)

The creative adjustments made during printing to contrast, image tone, tonal placement, including dodging, burning, bleaching etc. fall into the realm of artistic refinement; adjustments made to make a print "sing" in order to give it the desired emotional impact. If you have tested and calibrated your negative exposure and development (either extensively, as with the Zone System, or less so, as in Ralph's guidelines and empirical "tweaking"), you should have negatives that allow you to use all the printing manipulations at your disposal to achieve this. That is the purpose of the Zone System and other exposure/development systems. If you haven't, you will find that achieving your goal is often seriously hampered by negatives that are, in essence, unprintable to your satisfaction.

Sorry this turned out so long, but good luck.

Best

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

 

[2F/2F]

N means the development parameters (type, dilution, water used, temperature, time, agitation, etc.) that result in you being able to obtain what you have decided to call normal contrast on what you have decided to call your normal print. It's a very simple definition, aside from the fact that you have to make some aesthetic decisions and stick to them for N to have any meaning in the future. If you decide that you want something higher in contrast than what you have decided to call N contrast, then it does not mean that N is no longer N by your predetermined criteria for what N is. It simply means that for this particular pic, you want more contrast than what you have decided to refer to as N. N is simply your own personal point of departure.

Most people choose an N that makes an average-contrast composition print as an average-contrast print when it is printed straight at a predetermined enlargement, time, f stop, and with a set, predetermined development routine, using a paper of grade 2, or a VC paper through a 2 or 2-1/2 filter. This is not a requirement, however. For example, when developing specifically for Emaks paper, grade 3 is my intended grade that I will use in order to make an average scene into an average print. Thus, my normal negative that is intended for printing on Emaks is flatter than most people's normal negative. I do this because the only grades in which Emaks is available are grades 2, 3, and 4. When using graded paper, I like to have one grade above normal and one grade below available. When I print negs intended for Emaks on Oriental VCFB or Ilford MGWT, I need to use higher filters than with negs that I intended for these papers in the first place.

 

[piu58]

Dear Doremus,

probably you did not understand me fully. Imagine: You want to have an image with all tones, blacks, greys and lights. But you want to have a very high local contrast. If you try to reach this contrast with negative development alone, you will lose the highlights at least. They will be blocked.
If you develop the film to normal or perhaps slightly hard contrast and use hard or very hard paper you have the chance to get all tones into that image: shadows, greys and highlights. This requires burning and dodging, but it works. You get very pronounced structures in the image, in all ranges of the image. I see no way to get this with negative control alone.

 

[wiggywag]

Better you should get Ralph W. Lambrecht's book Way Beyond Monochrome, second addition! www.waybeyondmonochrome.com He is an APUG member who has given advice for free here for years.

Another cheap plug supplied by Sirius Glass.
http://www.waybeyondmonochrome.com/

Oh yes, I will buy that book....

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... The zone system and the control of development is aimed to use the capability of the film the record a special range of light. It has nothing to do with your feeling how the image should look like. ...

Uwe

The Zone System is not just a catch-it-all concept. It has everything to do with visualizing the final print, but of course, that is done through negative and print treatment.

The negative is the composition, the print is the performance!
Ansel Adams

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Doremus and Uwe

I think, you two are in violent agreement now.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Uwe,

Vielleicht habe ich nicht richtig verstanden...

Yes indeed, achieving local contrast often entails using a higher contrast-grade paper! For me, that's part of the visualization process. I often indicate grade 3 paper instead of grade 2, along with an appropriate development scheme, at the time of exposure in order to increase local contrast. I have a chart for what I have to do to development to get desired effects in local contrast. I almost always indicate what paper grade or developer type I think I'll need on my exposure record.
I also write down lots of things like "this one will need a lot of burning for the white paint," or "overexposed so I can dig for the shadows," etc., etc.

My point was simply that the Zone System (and other similar systems) serve not only to get the subject brightness range onto the negative, but provide a tool for tailoring the negative to achieve a desired print (straight, harsh, smooth, snappy, whatever) through visualizing the final result before exposure and deciding on the optimum exposure and development. For me, this is the most important aspect of the Zone System.

So, as Ralph observes, I think we are in (not so violent) agreement.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

 

[piu58]

> I think we are in (not so violent) agreement.

Yes, our agreement ist friendly ,-)

 

[wiggywag]

Here is a simple technique, which will improve picture quality significantly and does not require any testing at all. Use it if you dislike testing with a passion, or if you just don’t have the time for a test at the moment. This method can also be used to give a new film a test drive and compare it to the one you are using now.

For a normal contrast, bright but cloudy day, cut the manufacturer’s recommended film speed by 2/3 stop (i.e. ISO 400/27° becomes ISO 250/25°) and the recommended development time by 15%. The increased exposure will boost the shadow detail, and the reduced development time will prevent the highlights from becoming too dense. For a high-contrast, bright and sunny day, increase the exposure by an additional 2/3 stop (i.e., ISO 400/27° now becomes ISO 160/23°) and reduce the development time by a total of 30%. Stick to the ‘box speed’ and suggested development time for images taken on a low-contrast, rainy or foggy day.

A negative processed this way will easily print with a diffusion enlarger on grade-2 or 2.5 papers. Just give it a try. It is really that simple to make a significant improvement to negative and image quality.

I'll use your advise when I'll go for Safari in Kenya next month. Johooo!

 

[Mats_A]

Here is a simple technique, which will improve picture quality significantly and does not require any testing at all. Use it if you dislike testing with a passion, or if you just don’t have the time for a test at the moment. This method can also be used to give a new film a test drive and compare it to the one you are using now.

For a normal contrast, bright but cloudy day, cut the manufacturer’s recommended film speed by 2/3 stop (i.e. ISO 400/27° becomes ISO 250/25°) and the recommended development time by 15%. The increased exposure will boost the shadow detail, and the reduced development time will prevent the highlights from becoming too dense. For a high-contrast, bright and sunny day, increase the exposure by an additional 2/3 stop (i.e., ISO 400/27° now becomes ISO 160/23°) and reduce the development time by a total of 30%. Stick to the ‘box speed’ and suggested development time for images taken on a low-contrast, rainy or foggy day.

A negative processed this way will easily print with a diffusion enlarger on grade-2 or 2.5 papers. Just give it a try. It is really that simple to make a significant improvement to negative and image quality.

This was the best explanation I ever read of the connection between contrast, ISO and developing!
You rock, Hr Lambrecht!

r

Mats