Fiber Print Frilling

Richard Jepsen

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In recent years I am experiencing print frilling using Ilford FB paper. My fix is TF-4 and more recently TF-5. I wash prints with a tray fill and dump method. Heico is my wash aid. My wash wet time is 30-40 min with 5 or 6 dump and fills. I typically am careful to fill the tray with the same tempered 20-22c water. Prints are air dried (20-21c) overnight using green photo plotters. The drying print is left on a counter top face up with a damp blotter under it. The frilled example is affected on one side. I used 2 dry blotters plotting up moisture on each 8x10 print.

In a previous session using the same paper I did not have this problem. I believe our water quality has calcium. However, in past years I have not had these issues so water quality is not suspect. Perhaps it has to do with uneven drying.

Does anyone have any ideas of the cause and a fix?
 

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mshchem

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Kodak used to sell print flattening solution. It's a glycol that helps to balance the residual moisture content of the fiber base and the emulsion side.
This is why mounting prints was so popular.
Fiber base prints will never be as flat as resin coated (PE) paper prints.
 

koraks

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Richard Jepsen said:
Does anyone have any ideas of the cause and a fix?
Click to expand...

In addition to what @mshchem said above:
* Use a dry mount press to flatten your prints, or
* use gummed paper tape to tape it to a flat surface (e.g. glass; emulsion away from the glass) while the print is still moist; it'll pull itself taut and be nice and flat. Cut loose and you'll have to trim the borders afterwards or overmat the taped edges.

Also refer to this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/getting-fiber-based-paper-flat.44984

I'll move your thread to the B&W film & paper section in a minute.
 

Ben 4

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I occasionally get those ripples in my dried fiber prints, which I take to be a result of how wet the print is when it hits the blotter and the relative humidity at the time—kind of a guessing game. I don't have a dry-mount press, so I generally let my fiber prints air dry, emulsion down on fiberglass screens until they are just a bit damp (part of the guessing game). Then I move them to photo blotters that I place under a stack of heavy stuff (currently storage boxes filled with finished prints, but I've used books too. This usually works; I mostly get flat, unrippled prints. But if they are too wet when they go into the blotters…
In any case, rippled prints can be soaked and re-dried, as you probably know.
 

Pieter12

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I have had rippled egdes on prints even with a dry mount press. I tend to blame it on the low humidity. Sometimes I will mist the back of the prints before putting them in the press, sometimes it works. I also think it is important to keep the prints under pressure after they come out of the dry mount press, I will leave them under a metal plate or a stack of books. Better results, still not 100% flat. Dry mounting is the only real solution as far as I can tell.
 

GregY

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Agreed. After coming out of the press, i let the prints cool under a sheet of plate glass.
 

Philippe-Georges

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I learned to let the prints (FOMABROM FB III) dry upside down on a fiber insect screen (laid down very gently) as I saw that when the back dries a bit faster than the emulsion the prints are flatter.
But first I gently whip off the excess of water (Sistan actually) from the emulsion with a soft and damp micro fiber cloth, while the prints are laying emulsion up on a sponge towel which sucks up the most of the water from the back.

Than, once fully dry, I put them, between acid free blotters, under a pile of five 2cm thick marble tiles of about 35x45cm for a few days...

Under normal atmospheric conditions and 'gentle' room temperatures, it takes about for days from wet to fully dry AND flat.

The most important thing I learned is to have patience, but that is the essence of analogue life...
 
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Pieter12

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Depending on the ambient heat and humidity, my prints can look anywhere from like a shallow tray to a piece of bacon when they come off the drying screens. I need to be especially careful with the severely scalloped ones when they go into the dry mount press, they can crease if I'm not careful.
 
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Richard Jepsen

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I never had this problem with heavier paper support like Emaks, Agfa papers, Oriental WT, or Forte PWT. That said, it has to be related to the emulsion or paper pulling on each other. My older prints on Ilford FB do not show this. I recall Ilford‘s new (2018?) formulated papers mentioned slightly faster wash times. Umm?

Lootens, “On Photography Enlarger and Print Quality”, 7th edition mentions possible frilling if wash water temp is 85 degrees. In an abundance of caution I am going to ensure when filling the tray I don’t dump water too vigorously from the faucet on the print, ensure water temp is 20-23c, and use more plotters to dry the print.

Its interesting I’m not alone in experiencing frilling. I also press prints under books but that has not completely solved the issue.

There is lots to like in those new reformulated papers. For one their speed matching between RC and FB Is spot on. Classic FB and Deluxe RC are very sharp even with a pearl surface.
 
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GregY

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My experience has been much like Pieter's. The dry print condition varies with temperature & humidity. My holding tray and wash water temperatures are in the 20-22° C range, never as high as 30°C.
I only use RC paper for testing or making the occasional batch of cards. FB for everything else.
 

mshchem

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I use an old Pako drum dryer. These old machines work great as long as you don't get the print too dry. After coming off the belt I stack the prints at room temperature.
Kodak made a print straightener for 50 years or better. This machine would use hot water vapor to rehydrate the print on a canvas belt, I've seen one of these but never used.
Key is not over drying and drying uniformly and flat. Koraks and others have good suggestions.
I love my old Pako machines.
 

MattKing

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "frilling" something that involves damage to the edge of the paper or the image area, not simply wavy or curled edges?
 

Bill Burk

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There’s a sticky thread about drying prints.

I used to get this when I used a print dryer the kind that holds print down with canvas.

I would get a screen and lay the print on it to dry without any board. After it’s dry put in a dry mount press with no heat.
 

Philippe-Georges

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Richard, I am afraid that books aren't heavy enough for pressing FB prints.
I used to put my prints, mostly 24x24cm and 24x30,5cm, under a waterproof multiplex plank with two filled 10l jerrycans on top as a weight (=+/- 20kg), but this wasn't sufficient.
I switched to marble (*), one marble tile is almost as heavy as a filled jerrycan, and I put 5 of these on the prints...

But, if, I repeat if, I encounter frilling, which happens now and then, this nearly 50kg is hardly enough, but it improves...
When frilling occurs, it is mostly on the side where I trim off a strip with a roller cutter (24x30,5 —> 24x24) before using that sheet for printing, but I am not sure if this is the cause.

(*) salvaged from a construction site dump container...
 
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Richard Jepsen

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Frilling is different from the waveiness of a typical dried fiber print. Even with the heavier older papers I mentioned there was some natural curl. Ilford’s Multigrade always being the worse offender. Those heavier papers would lie flat after being placed in books.

Frilling is different as you can see by the supplied photo. In this case it was on one edge. Note…I only see this on 8x10s…not on Ilford’s pre cut 5x7s.

All I can do is experiment in making sure the print is not stressed during the wash cycle, getting the print drier, perhaps drying face down, and last it may be worth while to look at my fix. TF-4/5 are alkaline. Not been a problem in the past but Ilford changed their paper technology. Alkaline fix swells gelatin allowing much faster fix times and perhaps Ilford’s more neutral balanced fix produces less gelatin stress. The only other factor is Heico wash aid.

Most of us air dry prints. I’ve done so for 25 years without frilling, only experiencing the standard curl.

Something has changed and it has not been my post wash dry process.
 
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Paul Howell

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Richard I think your methods are spot on, it must be an issue with the paper, not sure if there was problem with your paper from a particular fun, or if is an ongoing problem. I have not used ILford in a very time, I have no issues with Foma.
 

MarkS

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I understand "frilling" to be when the paper emulsion is coming loose at the print edge- usually due to too much wet time.
I don't see that in your examples- the rippling I see is an effect related to how fast the print dries and the ambient humidity. The best way to have flat FB prints is as above, heated in a dry-mount press and left to cool under under a weight (I use a flat steel plate). Even then there will be a small amount of curl- but at least the ripples will be gone.
 

MattKing

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+1
 

Philippe-Georges

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If you want to revise your fixer, perhaps you can give C-41 fixer a try.
I use FUJI-HUNT UNILEC at 1+4 (which is intended for colour paper) for almost 20 years now, and it works perfectly on B&W (fiber-) paper, and B&W film too.
UNILEC is a neutral-to-alkalic fixer.
 

George Collier

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Over time, I used many methods, described here. Blotters, screens, even ferrotyping. What I discovered was that no matter how flat a 16x20 print is (except possibly for a ferrotype drum), if it's stored in a box (conservator's) with other prints, or even in used paper envelopes, when it comes out to be framed, it will have the wavy edges, to some degree or other.
I wound up hanging prints (I posted this in the old sticky mentioned by Bill Burke) back to back, corner to corner on string lines, with the bottom corners aligned and clothespinned together. When dry, I put them all in a dry mount press, interleaved with glassine, set low heat, and left them there for a day or so.
They would be flat at first, but would eventually get wavy on the edges in storage. I just let them do that, and re-flatten before framing. If you don't have a press, use glass, as some suggested, or have two large aluminum plates made (1/16" thick) and place them between, like the press, with heavy stuff on top. If you used aluminum plates, you can apply heat.
Blotters are nice, but will eventually pick up some kind of chemical residue (screens and dryer aprons too) which is why I stopped using them.
And if you are using an alkaline fix, I don't think you need to use a wash aid.
 

mshchem

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I bought some of this from Unique Photo, they didn't have the size I ordered so they sent me a 5 gallon cubitainer. I have been using it 1 shot on Jobo machines to fix TMY-2. works great. This stuff is universal C-41, E6 etc etc
 
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Richard Jepsen

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I rechecked my fiber Ilford 5x7s and the frilling is not apparent although I have seen in the past very minor frilling that relaxed to a flat state.

The pictured print air dried over night on a kitchen counter in a home where the overnight temp was 20c. We do run the air handler fan to circulate air in the house. In this drying case the neither the AC or heater turned on during the night. My guess is humidity in the house was 60%.

My experience is dry air promotes excessive print curl. I gave away my large Seal print press. Seldom used the press as print drying and flattening not a past issue. Inserting 8x10 prints in books always worked.

What responders are missing is I only recently (2 years) started to see frilling as opposed to the expected waviness of a dried fiber print. Thats what is strange. Is anyone fixing Ilford FB with TF-4 or TF-5?

I use a wash aid because I tone with KRST which has hypo in it. I also do so in an abundance of caution to create clean archival prints.
 
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