thats what everyone does and how myths, half truths and downright wrong information is perpetuated isn't it? It's also how people get stuck in a rut and won't believe anyone who says anything is wrong citing the fact that all the books say the same thing so anything different must be wrong. Well its no one wonder if you look at what every one else has done. Its why web sites all look the same. Its why design in general is fashionable becasue all the designers copy each other. Its how art syles become fashionable. Everyone is copying everyone else.
Nope, I'm just gonna write what I damn well want to write in next release which will be final release. I have noted a fair few comments and corrections for inclusion.
Nope, I'm just gonna write what I damn well want to write in next release which will be final release.
thats what everyone does and how myths, half truths and downright wrong information is perpetuated isn't it?
Rob, I already understand this stuff. I was spending my time and effort attempting to help you.as usual you've twisted it. As of now you are on my ignore list. I think you've let your ego get the better of you. I'm not looking for your respect. Sorry to disappoint you. Oh, and you had no other choice? We all can make choices except you it seems, you just can't help yourself. That's the problem. Goodbye.
Ralph is correct and my Kodak gray card does measure 0.75C 0.75M and 0.75Y.
RobC!
The unit for the incident meter is lumen per squared meter (lm/m^2 or lux) and not cd/m^2 as stated in your article.
A diffused surface with a reflectivity of 100% is exposed to an illuminance, E, of 1 lm/m^2 (lux) at the plane of the surface the luminance, L, of that surface is E/pi= 1/3.1416 or 0.318 cd/m^2. Yes there is the Pi factor in there.
An 18% gray card is illuminated at 0EV (2.5 lux as per a K250 meter) would have a luminance of 0.1432 cd/m^2 which is 0EV as measured with a meter with a K14.
So the 18% gray card is the relationship between an incident and reflective meters. It's 17.59% for C250 and K14 like Minolta
and 15.70% for C250 and K12.5 like Sekonic meter.
So the 18% is really related to the incident light meter not so much reflected light meter.
I'm enjoying this thread too but I'm still convinced that a gray Card has 18% and that it has to do with average or typical scene reflectance. Maybe digital photography can help here:if one took ,let's say 100+ landscape/streetscene images and looked at the histogram statistics in Photoshop to find the average luminocity and then calculated the average reflectance;This would be a repeat ofthe Jones and Condit experiment and could get us closer to an answer.Hi RobC,
I always enjoy articles that prompt discussions, and you bring up some important points.
I found something you can sink your teeth into regarding the 18% gray card. Advice to open up one stop is an approximation. You're really supposed to open up 2/3 stop (but who could work with that, so they just say "open up one stop").
The Wikipedia article for light meter has a link to a Kodak page that shows how to relate an 18% gray card to illuminance.
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/am105/am105kic.shtml
Relate the table to Sunny 16. Sunny 16 is commonly considered to be 81920 lux.
The chart doesn't go to 81920 lux, it stops at 64300 lux. What would be Sunny 16 from there?
Convert 64300 to log: 4.808
Add 1/3 stop, or 0.1: 4.908
Convert from log back to arithmetic: 80909 lux
2/3 stop more than 64300 would be 101908 lux and that overshoots by a significant amount.
Looking at the chart and working up to the shutter speed recommended for a reading of an 18% gray card in Sunny 16 conditions would be 4 1/3 stop faster than 1/30
By following the dial on my exposure meter from 1/30 second up 4 1/3 stops, I find a shutter speed of 1/600 second. This is what would be recommended by an exposure meter looking at a gray card in Sunny 16 conditions for ISO 400 film.
This is 2/3 stop higher shutter speed than the Sunny 16 rule. So you should open up 2/3 stop from a gray card reading, because it is 2/3 stop lighter than the calibration point.
Now what's 2/3 stop less than 18%? Find that and you will find a calibrated reflectance equivalent.
Following a reference I like to turn to to visualize percent reflection in terms of logarithmic density:
https://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=763&Action=support&SupportID=3730
18% equates to 0.74 reflection density
Add 2/3 stop (0.2) to make it denser (darker) = 0.94 reflection density
Which equates to 11%
So by this exercise it can be demonstrated that a meter is calibrated to 11%, because with a card of that reflectance in Sunny 16 light conditions your meter would indicate 1/400 second at f/16 for ISO 400 film speed.
Your thought that it is 8% would require a card with density of 1.10
Which would be to say an 18% gray card reads 0.36 density difference from what it should, and you would be recommending users to open up almost 1 1/3 stop.
So I don't agree with 8% and this is one demonstration towards the discussion. 8% is nearly 2/3 stop too dark for the job.
Another fun calculation you can work off that Kodak chart is the hypothetical... What would K have to be if the meters were calibrated to 18%.
Taking the formula N squared / t = ( L times S ) / K and substituting...
32 squared / 1/30 second = ((16,000 lux times 0.18 ) times 400) / K
30,720 = 1,152,000 / K
30,720 K = 1,152,000
K = 37.5
So K would have to be 37.5 if the meter were to be calibrated to 18%
With all this interesting discussion,I forgot what is in question here?well there you go. I consistently get my zone V on 0.6 above fb+fog or thereabouts and I'm not using a grey card. But I develop for a 10 stop range to fit into 1.3log density range above fb+fog on neg. So my midtone value hits the middle of the used portion of my neg film curve.
But if I metered a grey card whatever its percentage reflection and placed on zone V, i.e. used actual meter reading, I would expect it to be 0,6 density or close above fb+fog. Given that I or you could use any %age reflection card, meter it and use given reading, it shows that just metering a grey card using metered value has nothing to do with colour reproduction at same tone as card. You must know how close to middle of your curve the %age reflection of your card really is. I still think it should be 8% so that it matches what your meter is using as its %age reduction based on its K factor. And if I were to meter an 18% grey card and open up 1 stop it would produce at a very close tone to the card in the print at G2. After all 18% reflectance is only 2 1/2 stops less than 100% which would be white if you are capturing a full range of tones in direct light.
And that makes a complete nonsense of using a grey card at all.
Looks to me that your chart is developing to manufacturer recommended (or close) for ISO speed.
If I were doing that then my mid point would be a bit higher density coming close to yours.
But your zone X is a whole 0.4log higher neg density than mine so you would stuggle to get a full range of tones on your neg from black to white to print without burning in or going to softer thean G2 paper. Each to his own as they say.
What you are saying is that your negs are developed to higher contrast and hence density range than mine but thats your choice and I know people don't seem to interpret the zone system in the same way as I do.
And that only goes to show that its all a pretty pointless discussion becasue we're all doing it a different way anyway.
I really don't care what its origin is, I'm more interested in stating what it's usefulness is or not or how to compensate for its inaccuracies.Rob, I already understand this stuff. I was spending my time and effort attempting to help you.
I agree with you but understanding standards is the first step before questioning them.How many times do I have to tell you people. You're a bit slow on the uptake. I'm not interested in being dragged down the mind numbingly boring standards route. They are 100% not required to take an accurate meter reading and going on about flare and derivation of the K Factor won't make your negatives any better and certainly won't make you a better photographer. if all you're interested in is standards then go and work for ISO, I'm sure its a thrilling place to work with lots of committee meetings to attend.
I have just about every version going back to the military standard used during WWII. The standard doesn't say 12%. Like I said, Reflectance doesn't play much of a part. It's about the relationship between the calibration Illuminance and calibration Luminance. A short cut is the ratio of K and C; however, I believe using the constants may only be valid only for when the meter's influence is not factored in or basically the standard's calibration "ideal."Does someone here has the ISO standard. I can't afford to purchase it from ISO. If so can someone post a quote from the standard about the reflectance standard of 12%?
Summing up some of my feedback from Rob's "paper."
· Exposure meters use Luminance not Reflectance.
· Jack Dunn’s Exposure Manual has 9% as the average scene Reflectance from a 7 stop scene.
· Exposure isn’t intended to be placed in the middle of the B&W film curve.
· The metered exposure point is determined from psychophysical testing and not from an average Reflectance and has to do with Luminance distribution.
OMG, Ralph... BRILLIANT! I'm going to quote you on my "real job" where I work with engineering standards all day long and constantly have engineers and program managers pushing back on them, but when asked what exactly they disagree with their response is generally deflection and a question, "Can you tell me where I can get a copy?" or "Can you tell me what's in it?"I agree with you but understanding standards is the first step before questioning them.
I agree with you but understanding standards is the first step before questioning them.
· Jack Dunn’s Exposure Manual has 9% as the average scene Reflectance from a 7 stop scene.
I have just about every version going back to the military standard used during WWII. The standard doesn't say 12%. Like I said, Reflectance doesn't play much of a part. It's about the relationship between the calibration Illuminance and calibration Luminance. A short cut is the ratio of K and C; however, I believe using the constants may only be valid only for when the meter's influence is not factored in or basically the standard's calibration "ideal."
I think you can get more out of the Re-evaluation paper that is available online. I believe I gave the link in one of my posts. The paper Calibration Levels is a relevant read.
Oh yeah, if you want a copy of the 1971 ANSI standard with the appendixes and the ISO one from sometime in the 90s, send me your email address.
I don't know how to send you a private message. I sure like to read those standards.
This must be wrong because Wikipedia article says K = 14 would be 18% (with C = 250).
Anyone know how to compute reflected light given incident light and reflectance? I think my calculation is wrong there. Maybe need to use PI at that step of the equation?
valuable info;I started my evaluation of average street/landscape shots,and so far. I get an average luminance value of 112,which equals abot Zone 5.1 and 17.7 % reflectance;I think,I'm on to something here.Hi RobC,
I always enjoy articles that prompt discussions, and you bring up some important points.
I found something you can sink your teeth into regarding the 18% gray card. Advice to open up one stop is an approximation. You're really supposed to open up 2/3 stop (but who could work with that, so they just say "open up one stop").
The Wikipedia article for light meter has a link to a Kodak page that shows how to relate an 18% gray card to illuminance.
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/am105/am105kic.shtml
Relate the table to Sunny 16. Sunny 16 is commonly considered to be 81920 lux.
The chart doesn't go to 81920 lux, it stops at 64300 lux. What would be Sunny 16 from there?
Convert 64300 to log: 4.808
Add 1/3 stop, or 0.1: 4.908
Convert from log back to arithmetic: 80909 lux
2/3 stop more than 64300 would be 101908 lux and that overshoots by a significant amount.
Looking at the chart and working up to the shutter speed recommended for a reading of an 18% gray card in Sunny 16 conditions would be 4 1/3 stop faster than 1/30
By following the dial on my exposure meter from 1/30 second up 4 1/3 stops, I find a shutter speed of 1/600 second. This is what would be recommended by an exposure meter looking at a gray card in Sunny 16 conditions for ISO 400 film.
This is 2/3 stop higher shutter speed than the Sunny 16 rule. So you should open up 2/3 stop from a gray card reading, because it is 2/3 stop lighter than the calibration point.
Now what's 2/3 stop less than 18%? Find that and you will find a calibrated reflectance equivalent.
Following a reference I like to turn to to visualize percent reflection in terms of logarithmic density:
https://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=763&Action=support&SupportID=3730
18% equates to 0.74 reflection density
Add 2/3 stop (0.2) to make it denser (darker) = 0.94 reflection density
Which equates to 11%
So by this exercise it can be demonstrated that a meter is calibrated to 11%, because with a card of that reflectance in Sunny 16 light conditions your meter would indicate 1/400 second at f/16 for ISO 400 film speed.
Your thought that it is 8% would require a card with density of 1.10
Which would be to say an 18% gray card reads 0.36 density difference from what it should, and you would be recommending users to open up almost 1 1/3 stop.
So I don't agree with 8% and this is one demonstration towards the discussion. 8% is nearly 2/3 stop too dark for the job.
Another fun calculation you can work off that Kodak chart is the hypothetical... What would K have to be if the meters were calibrated to 18%.
Taking the formula N squared / t = ( L times S ) / K and substituting...
32 squared / 1/30 second = ((16,000 lux times 0.18 ) times 400) / K
30,720 = 1,152,000 / K
30,720 K = 1,152,000
K = 37.5
So K would have to be 37.5 if the meter were to be calibrated to 18%
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