FB print deterioration: what went wrong here?

Hello, I just noticed this in a FB print I made about a year and a half ago, which passed the time since then hanged on the wall. I'm supposed to think the yellowish dots started to appear in the top right side of the image, then they spread in other areas. I observed the dots are light reflecting in their first stage, then they become more yellow.

Link to the image: https://iili.io/JWMvBn.jpg

The FB print workflow was the following:
- Dev (factorial development)
- Stop (30 sec.)
- Fixer 1+4 (60 sec.)
- Rinse (5 min.)
- Selenium Toning
- Ilford Washaid (10 min. without agitation)
- Wash (30 min.)

Since then I changed my FB workflow into this:
- Dev (factorial development)
- Stop (30 sec.)
- Fixer 1+4 (60 sec.)
- Wash (30 min.)
- Selenium Toning
- Rinse (5 min.)
- HCA (4 min. constant agitation)
- Wash (30/40 min.)

The rinsing is made with the Paterson RC Washer which basically is a tray with flowing water, the washing is made with a vertical paper washer.
Despite all the recommendations I never used the two bath fixing procedure, but I've always dumped the fixer after 1 square meter of paper processed.

My question is: what went wrong here? The damage has been done by residues of silver thiosulfate or by an improper archival washing? I should mention that other FB prints from the same time, which have been stored in boxes and not hanged to the wall, doesn't have any sign of deterioration.

I think incomplete fixing or your fix went bad. Your fix time is short...what fix and at what strength are you using?

Vaughn said:

I think incomplete fixing or your fix went bad. Your fix time is short...what fix and at what strength are you using?

Click to expand...

I agree - 60 seconds is usually fine for RC paper, but is problematic for FB.

Vaughn said:

I think incomplete fixing or your fix went bad. Your fix time is short...what fix and at what strength are you using?

Click to expand...

I use Adox Fixer at film strenght 1+4. For this dilution the recommended time for FB paper is 60/80 seconds.

Not enough fixing for FB paper. Think like 10 to 30 minutes, not seconds. When all else fails read the instructions.

When I was toning for archival purposes, I always used two fixing baths and both without hardener. The second fixing bath would always be fresh. In the next printing session, the former second bath would be moved into the first position and I would mix a fresh second bath. That seemed to work just fine... I also mixed the selenium toning bath with hypo-clear of some sort.

I didn't know about that, I've always thought that 60 seconds was enough for FB paper if processed at the strongest dilution like 1+4. Even Ilford in in the Rapid Fixer data sheet refers to these times.

That's happened to me several times over the years. I think I lose track of the number of prints I have fixed and have exhausted the fixer. I tend to leave it in the tray for several minutes so it isn't that.

Umberto said:

I didn't know about that, I've always thought that 60 seconds was enough for FB paper if processed at the strongest dilution like 1+4. Even Ilford in in the Rapid Fixer data sheet refers to these times.

Click to expand...

You are most likely safe if you are processing to commercial (as composed to maximum archival) standards, and using fixer that is both fresh and fresh from the factory.

So in this case what caused the damage? The remaining silver halides not properly fixed, reacting to indirect light exposure in time?

I fix double wt papers 10 mints, single wt, (dont know if anyone but Salvich makes a single wti) 5 mints, I use a standard fixer. Other issue is that your hypo clearing was a bad batch or had gone bad.

Umberto said:

I didn't know about that, I've always thought that 60 seconds was enough for FB paper if processed at the strongest dilution like 1+4. Even Ilford in in the Rapid Fixer data sheet refers to these times.

Click to expand...

Correct but the capacity of this strength of fixer used as a single bath is very low.

Umberto said:

So in this case what caused the damage? The remaining silver halides not properly fixed, reacting to indirect light exposure in time?

Click to expand...

Might be related to selenium toning a partially fixed print.

Edited to add...the color/bronzing of the image reminds me of B&W Polaroid prints that were not given the required fixative coating. It may have no relation, but I was wondering where I have seen such discoloration before. I had this uncoated print (Type 55) on my office door for many years -- I used the negative for some PR type thing.

The second image is the first print I ever made (self-portrait w/ timer on the Rollei) -- my parents displayed it for a few decades. Another copy stashed away is still perfect. Both RC. Who knows what the fixer was like...did not really know what I was doing. It looks like insufficient agitation in the fixer -- perhaps two sheets got stuck together and part of this print got less fixing.

One thing that may have added to the confusion is that Kodak recommends 5-10 mins for FB paper with their fixers (Rapid Fixer or KodaFix), while Ilford recommends only 1-2 mins (depending on dilution) with their Rapid Fixer.

Single bath ammonia thiosulfate fixer 60 seconds was recommended for archival processing by many authorities about 30 years ago. I have had good luck with that in the last 30 years using ammonia thiosulfate from both Kodak and Ilford.

Boy, there's a lot of conflicting (and just plain wrong) information here! I don't want to offend anyone, but some of us should really be more informed than the above seems to indicate...

First, we don't seem to be differentiating between conventional and rapid fixers, or between Ilford and Kodak very well. Nor do we see to have a handle on fixing times... 30 minutes is way too long. Ilford and many other manufacturers recommend 60 seconds in a strong dilution of rapid fixer, so that's not too short with the right product.

Conventional fixers are sodium thiosulfate based, usually mixed from powder and need 5-10 minutes fixing time for fiber-base prints.

Rapid fixers are ammonium thiosulfate based and often need less time, depending on the dilution. Kodak confuses this issue by recommending the same time for fiber-base prints for all their fixers. (I don't really know what's going on with Kodak and their recommendations; it seems that they have not bothered to update things in a long time and are therefore providing less-than-accurate instructions.)

Ilford is pretty clear about what they recommend. And, indeed, they do recommend a 60-second fix for fiber-base prints in their Rapid Fixer or Hypam at the 1+4 dilution as does Adox for their Adox Plus fixer. So, there's nothing wrong (according to the manufacturer, and if the fixer is Adox Plus) with the OP's processing sequence.

The problem seems to be one of using exhausted or outdated fixer and/or incomplete washing. I tend to think it is the former, since the wash times and the treatment with wash aid, plus the use of a good washer would seem to indicate that the prints were washed adequately enough to last well beyond a year-and-a-half. That said, if the print were touching another print or a divider and didn't get thoroughly washed, that could be the cause.

The defect seems to be sulfur-related (yellow color) and silvering-out of some parts of the print. This is common with poor fixing.

@OP: Fixer goes bad with age. It can be bad in a new bottle if the concentrate has been stored improperly or too long. Usually, old fixer concentrate exhibits some precipitation of yellowish or whitish particles, sometimes floating suspended in the solution. Working solutions of fixer go bad quickly due to exposure to air. In a tray, you've only got 5-7 days. A month in a half-full bottle. You should never use the same fix for film and prints. Film fixer loads up with byproducts faster. Film can take these and still be properly fixed; prints don't.

Fixer capacity is important. Keep in mind that the recommended capacity is often for less-than-optimum permanence standards. For optimum permanence, use two-bath fixing and keep the capacity down to about 30-40 8x10s per liter of bath one. If you use one-bath fixing, the capacity for optimum permanence is only about 10 8x10s per liter. That said, your one-square meter throughput limit, which equals about 20 8x10s is well withing the capacity for general-purpose work. Your fixer shouldn't be exhausted to the point that your prints go bad in a year-and-a-half, so I'm thinking bad fixer at this point.

Really, all the things you are doing are correct, so there must be some explanation outside your processing regime. Also look for contamination possibilities.

And, if you have prints from the same batch that are not yet damaged, you may want to re-fix and re-wash them just to be safe.

Best,

Doremus

Umberto said:

I didn't know about that, I've always thought that 60 seconds was enough for FB paper if processed at the strongest dilution like 1+4. Even Ilford in in the Rapid Fixer data sheet refers to these times.

Click to expand...

Double fix for two minutes each bath Rapid fix... hypo clear wash

Sirius Glass said:

Not enough fixing for FB paper. Think like 10 to 30 minutes, not seconds.

Click to expand...

Imho this is far far worse than the 60s time performed by the OP.
And btw 60s at 1+4 is what Ilford recommends as part of their archival process.

"The FB print workflow was the following:
- Dev (factorial development)
- Stop (30 sec.)
- Fixer 1+4 (60 sec.)
- Rinse (5 min.)
- Selenium Toning
- Ilford Washaid (10 min. without agitation)
- Wash (30 min.)"

Umberto I'd tend to think you overused your fixer or used an old one. in any case it's definitely a fixing problem.

Doremus Scudder said:

@OP: Fixer goes bad with age. It can be bad in a new bottle if the concentrate has been stored improperly or too long. Usually, old fixer concentrate exhibits some precipitation of yellowish or whitish particles, sometimes floating suspended in the solution. Working solutions of fixer go bad quickly due to exposure to air. In a tray, you've only got 5-7 days. A month in a half-full bottle. You should never use the same fix for film and prints. Film fixer loads up with byproducts faster. Film can take these and still be properly fixed; prints don't.

Fixer capacity is important. Keep in mind that the recommended capacity is often for less-than-optimum permanence standards. For optimum permanence, use two-bath fixing and keep the capacity down to about 30-40 8x10s per liter of bath one. If you use one-bath fixing, the capacity for optimum permanence is only about 10 8x10s per liter. That said, your one-square meter throughput limit, which equals about 20 8x10s is well withing the capacity for general-purpose work. Your fixer shouldn't be exhausted to the point that your prints go bad in a year-and-a-half, so I'm thinking bad fixer at this point.

Click to expand...

Doremus, thanks for your really informative response.
I have always followed all the information you mentioned. I also try not to exceed so much the shelf life of the concentrate fixer over the recommended times: Adox states three months since the bottle is opened, there have been times I used it for a month over that, but always looking for strange smells and/or sulfuration. In the specific case of this damaged print, I can remember fairly well the bottle had no more than few weeks.
However I will look more into that: next week I am going to prepare ST-1 and HT-2 test solutions, I have some work prints from the same batch of the damaged one and I will test them hoping to have more clues. I will also test my actual workflow, eventually I am thinking to switch to the two fixer baths.

Umberto said:

I didn't know about that, I've always thought that 60 seconds was enough for FB paper if processed at the strongest dilution like 1+4. Even Ilford in in the Rapid Fixer data sheet refers to these times.

Click to expand...

when you put your print in the strong fixer do you flip it over a few times, and agitate it the entire time it is in the fixing bath ?
sometimes the times listed on packaging for the fixers is a little optimistic, for fiber paper with speed fixer ( double weight paper ) I usually fix for 4-5 minutes split between 2 baths as mentioned. I can't speak for selenium, never used it ...

have fun !
John

MattKing said:

You are most likely safe if you are processing to commercial (as composed to maximum archival) standards, and using fixer that is both fresh and fresh from the factory.

Click to expand...

I'd agree. The OP has clearly followed the maker's (Ilford) instructions exactly. If there is a longer fix time for maximum archival processing I couldn't find any mention of it. However if there is this longer time and for some strange reason Ilford has chosen not to mention it then the age of the prints suggest that even to commercial standards the fix time should have been good enough for 18 months.

pentaxuser

I think there is nothing wrong with the processing sequence per se. If exhausted or decomposed fixer can be ruled out, it is most likely that the prints were not agitated properly in the fixer or the emulsion side was not in contact with the solution for the whole time. The Ilford sequence in question works, but one has to understand that it really requires you to agitate continously and make sure the print is in full contact with the fixer solution over the whole 60s. The level of the fixing solution in the tray should be ample. Especially so with modern papers that have a tendency to float. There really is little to zero margin for error or sloppiness when you use the Ilford regime.

Umberto said:

...
- Fixer 1+4 (60 sec.)
- Rinse (5 min.)
- Selenium Toning
- Ilford Washaid (10 min. without agitation)
- Wash (30 min.)

Since then I changed my FB workflow into this:
- Dev (factorial development)
- Stop (30 sec.)
- Fixer 1+4 (60 sec.)
- Wash (30 min.)
- Selenium Toning
- Rinse (5 min.)
- HCA (4 min. constant agitation)
- Wash (30/40 min.)...

Click to expand...

Hi,

to give a short answer:

A print should be completely washed before Se toning, here is the main problem with your first procedure.
The new work flow is better here, I would even add a HCA/Washaid bath before it.

IMO 30sec fix was too short, your new 60 sec are fine, I do it the same with FB paper and the Ilford fixer.

Best
Jens

I switched to TF4 archival fixer a long time ago. It costs more, but it's fast and there's no need for a wash aid. Mix enough for a day's session, but don't reuse it. TF4 is alkaline, and all you need is a water rinse or tray soak before toning; full washing can be done after toning. The workflow is significantly shortened and simplified. Lots of people go wrong by expecting their fixer to last forever. That's just like never changing your engine oil. But the problems the OP is seeing could be due to something else, including possible contaminants in unfiltered water, contaminants on the plastic bag the paper was packaged in (I've encountered that problem myself a few times), metal contaminants in the developer (seen that too), as well as air bells potentially preventing the paper from being properly fixed. He didn't give any specifics about developer or kind of paper itself.

Hi Umberto,

It does look as though your print wasn't properly fixed.

A way to ensure proper fixing is to use the two-tray fixing method. The first tray does most of the work and the second tray removes anything left behind by the first. It's also more economical because you can let more silver accumulate in the first tray.

Make up two trays of fresh fixer, then fix prints as normal in the first tray. Once you're ready, move the print into the second tray, this will remove any unexposed silver halide that was not removed in the first tray. When the first fixer tray has reached its capacity, it is replaced with the second bath and a new second tray is made up. After five cycles, dump both lots of fixer and make up two fresh ones to replace them.

I think Ilford's 60-second time is way too short for FB paper. What's the hurry? I recommend at least two minutes in each fixing bath, longer if the fixer is cold, letting the liquid flow over the entire print's surface. Also (and for anyone about to shout "fixer in the paper base increases washing times"), selenium toner contains ammonium thiosulphate (active ingredient in rapid fixer), so a 30-minute wash *before* selenium toning is not needed; a ten-minute wash will suffice.

If you want more information about print washing, I highly recommend ex-Silverprint owner Martin Reed's "Mysteries of the Vortex" here: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296.

Another tip; exhausted rapid fixer looks yellow, like white wine, whereas fresh fixer looks like water.