Exposure and focus settings when scanning via digital camera

madNbad · Jan 31, 2023

George Mann said:
I am looking for the most reasonably priced adaptor of sufficient quality to enable me to "scan" my film (mostly B&W) with my Nikon D2x (40mm focal length?), using Raw Therapee to process it.

The ES-2 seems overpriced for what it is, and I don't know how good the LOMO is. Are there any others?

If you are just starting and want to give camera scanning a try, the Lomo DigitaLIZA holds the negative flat and is reasonably priced. It uses a magnet to clamp the holder together. If you have or are looking for a copy stand, make sure it holds the camera parallel to the base. An inexpensive accessory shoe level will help. Tripods can be used but you need to be careful about stability. Get a decent light source, it will be a bigger benefit in the long run. The D2x will be great for scanning negatives. There are benefits to using a crop sensor. RAW Therapee will work well. You should be able to put together an efficient set up for not a lot of cash.

ymc226 · Jan 31, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
You could do that, but just be aware that LR applies its own tone curve to raw images. It'd be worth it to set up a flat or linear profile for your camera so that you get a more accurate exposure relative to sensor clipping, though in all honesty, if all you ever shoot is new film, you'll quickly discover that all c-41 film base plus fog is less than a stop difference from each other, and usually less than half a stop difference from each other, so once you find out what your exposure is for a given film base plus fog where you're getting maximum exposure with no clipping, pretty much everything else will be minor +- 1/3 stop changes as long as your shooting distance and light remains the same. The same goes for BW. They're all very close to each other, so once you get that worked out, it'll be a matter of setting it to the most common setting, taking a test shot and looking to verify you're not clipping, then maybe bumping it up or down by a third of a stop. Older films can deviate from that, but that's the general gist.

Thank you Adrian. The fact that most modern bases have the same exposure requirements is very helpful. I am trying to understand part of your response (in bold). Does that mean that LR does alter the tone curve to present what it thinks is the "best" starting point for post processing? Under the Tone Curve panel, the curve is straight; does that mean anything?

If relying only on the LR histogram, is there any situation where the digital capture of the negative could result in loss of information due to over or underexposure, but does not cause the clipped portions to be highlighted in the usual manner (red or blue overlays)? My concern is that LR may place all the out of range pixels at either extreme and not give warning that they are really unreadable.

Lastly, how does one go about setting up a linear profile for the camera? It wasn't obvious from quickly going through the Z7 reference manual.

Huss · Feb 1, 2023

George Mann said:
I am looking for the most reasonably priced adaptor of sufficient quality to enable me to "scan" my film (mostly B&W) with my Nikon D2x (40mm focal length?), using Raw Therapee to process it.

The ES-2 seems overpriced for what it is, and I don't know how good the LOMO is. Are there any others?

On Amazon there is an ES-2 knock off.

Huss · Feb 1, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thank you Adrian. The fact that most modern bases have the same exposure requirements is very helpful. I am trying to understand part of your response (in bold). Does that mean that LR does alter the tone curve to present what it thinks is the "best" starting point for post processing? Under the Tone Curve panel, the curve is straight; does that mean anything?

If relying only on the LR histogram, is there any situation where the digital capture of the negative could result in loss of information due to over or underexposure, but does not cause the clipped portions to be highlighted in the usual manner (red or blue overlays)? My concern is that LR may place all the out of range pixels at either extreme and not give warning that they are really unreadable.

Lastly, how does one go about setting up a linear profile for the camera? It wasn't obvious from quickly going through the Z7 reference manual.

I really think you are overthinking it...

I use the Z7. It's in matrix meter mode. It basically always gets it right because you are using it in a very controlled environment. Taking a photo of a negative. If the exposure of your film is incorrect, the Z7 will not be able to fix it. It may be able to recover some of it due to its dynamic range, but still.

Just scan with it, and see how it turns out. You are making this way too difficult on yourself!

ymc226 · Feb 1, 2023

Huss said:
I really think you are overthinking it...

I use the Z7. It's in matrix meter mode. It basically always gets it right because you are using it in a very controlled environment. Taking a photo of a negative. If the exposure of your film is incorrect, the Z7 will not be able to fix it. It may be able to recover some of it due to its dynamic range, but still.

Just scan with it, and see how it turns out. You are making this way too difficult on yourself!

I completely agree with you Huss. That's my MO though. I'm going to take your advice and just relax and approach it in a simplified manner. When I first started in the darkroom, I got lost in the details and in the end settled on HC-110 as a developer and kept everything straightforward. It's too easy to go overboard with the technical details; it could literally be another hobby in itself.

George Mann · Feb 1, 2023

Huss said:
On Amazon there is an ES-2 knock off.

What's the name of it? Can you link to it?

Huss · Feb 1, 2023

George Mann said:
What's the name of it? Can you link to it?

IMoL · Feb 1, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thank you Adrian. The fact that most modern bases have the same exposure requirements is very helpful. I am trying to understand part of your response (in bold). Does that mean that LR does alter the tone curve to present what it thinks is the "best" starting point for post processing? Under the Tone Curve panel, the curve is straight; does that mean anything?

If relying only on the LR histogram, is there any situation where the digital capture of the negative could result in loss of information due to over or underexposure, but does not cause the clipped portions to be highlighted in the usual manner (red or blue overlays)? My concern is that LR may place all the out of range pixels at either extreme and not give warning that they are really unreadable.

Lastly, how does one go about setting up a linear profile for the camera? It wasn't obvious from quickly going through the Z7 reference manual.

You can find linear lightroom profiles for most cameras as well as info about why they are useful here: https://goodlight.us/linear-profiles.html

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 1, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
You could do that, but just be aware that LR applies its own tone curve to raw images. It'd be worth it to set up a flat or linear profile for your camera so that you get a more accurate exposure relative to sensor clipping, though in all honesty, if all you ever shoot is new film, you'll quickly discover that all c-41 film base plus fog is less than a stop difference from each other, and usually less than half a stop difference from each other, so once you find out what your exposure is for a given film base plus fog where you're getting maximum exposure with no clipping, pretty much everything else will be minor +- 1/3 stop changes as long as your shooting distance and light remains the same. The same goes for BW. They're all very close to each other, so once you get that worked out, it'll be a matter of setting it to the most common setting, taking a test shot and looking to verify you're not clipping, then maybe bumping it up or down by a third of a stop. Older films can deviate from that, but that's the general gist.

Adrian, I've been trying my digital camera as a light meter using its histogram and blinkies to find the right exposure setting for my film camera. My concern is that the digital camera range is different, mainly greater range DR, from film. (I shoot BW and color chromes). So I tested the range by measuring a gray card. I was able to determine that the blinkies on the white side started to clip at 2-3 stops above the correct setting. On the black side, it was greater than 3 stops. But I couldn't;t determine how many because my compensation only allows + or - 3 stop adjustments.

So, when measuring to shoot film, if I see blinkie I'll reduce the setting (for chromes) and increase it for BW film. If no blinkies, I'll use the exposure setting shown in the digital camera may be decreasing a 1/2 stop for chromes and increase a 1/2 stop for BW.

What do you think?

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 1, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thank you Adrian. The fact that most modern bases have the same exposure requirements is very helpful. I am trying to understand part of your response (in bold). Does that mean that LR does alter the tone curve to present what it thinks is the "best" starting point for post processing? Under the Tone Curve panel, the curve is straight; does that mean anything?

If relying only on the LR histogram, is there any situation where the digital capture of the negative could result in loss of information due to over or underexposure, but does not cause the clipped portions to be highlighted in the usual manner (red or blue overlays)? My concern is that LR may place all the out of range pixels at either extreme and not give warning that they are really unreadable.

Lastly, how does one go about setting up a linear profile for the camera? It wasn't obvious from quickly going through the Z7 reference manual.

See my last post. Maybe you can check the LR histogram the same way as I checked it and the blinkies on my digital camera. Just aim the camera at a gray card and set the exposure so it;s correct. It should be in the middle of the histogram. Than increase the exposure using the camera's compensating dial to see how many stops before it clips on the right. Then do the same thing on the black side.

What are your results? How many stops at each end? Do the histograms and clipping occur on both the camera and LR with the same exposure adjustments?

Adrian Bacon · Feb 1, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thank you Adrian. The fact that most modern bases have the same exposure requirements is very helpful. I am trying to understand part of your response (in bold). Does that mean that LR does alter the tone curve to present what it thinks is the "best" starting point for post processing? Under the Tone Curve panel, the curve is straight; does that mean anything?

If relying only on the LR histogram, is there any situation where the digital capture of the negative could result in loss of information due to over or underexposure, but does not cause the clipped portions to be highlighted in the usual manner (red or blue overlays)? My concern is that LR may place all the out of range pixels at either extreme and not give warning that they are really unreadable.

Lastly, how does one go about setting up a linear profile for the camera? It wasn't obvious from quickly going through the Z7 reference manual.

The tone curve panel is what you want to apply on top of what Lightroom does as part of its profile. In the Develop module, there is a profile selection (right above the white balance dropper tool). It's probably set to "Adobe Color" or "Adobe Standard" depending on the version of LR you run. This profile has a whole set of baked in settings for color saturation, contrast, and tone curve that it applies under the covers that the develop module then allows you to layer your settings on top of. You want to set up your own LR profile that is as flat as possible so instead of selecting "Adobe Color" or "Adobe Standard", you select your own profile to apply. There are plenty of tutorials online that cover doing this.

In your camera, you can also set up a picture profile that has as little contrast and saturation dialed into it. I'm not familiar with Nikon cameras, but on Canons it's called picture style and I always go in to their "Faithful" style and turn the contrast and sharpness all the way down and dial the saturation down by a couple notches.

In the LR Histogram, if the over or under exposure is showing clipping, you're losing information.

Adrian Bacon · Feb 1, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Adrian, I've been trying my digital camera as a light meter using its histogram and blinkies to find the right exposure setting for my film camera. My concern is that the digital camera range is different, mainly greater range DR, from film. (I shoot BW and color chromes). So I tested the range by measuring a gray card. I was able to determine that the blinkies on the white side started to clip at 2-3 stops above the correct setting. On the black side, it was greater than 3 stops. But I couldn't;t determine how many because my compensation only allows + or - 3 stop adjustments.

So, when measuring to shoot film, if I see blinkie I'll reduce the setting (for chromes) and increase it for BW film. If no blinkies, I'll use the exposure setting shown in the digital camera may be decreasing a 1/2 stop for chromes and increase a 1/2 stop for BW.

What do you think?

That will be close enough. Your digital camera has a reflective meter built in that measures the exposure through the lens, you could just put the camera in program mode, half press the shutter button and look at the shutter speed and aperture that it comes up with and use those settings as a starting point.

Huss · Feb 1, 2023

Using my Z7 and negativelabpro. I just let the Z7's matrix meter do it's thing. If it gets a scene like this right - with a lot of bright white in it - I would just let the camera be.
But hey, that's IMO!

ymc226 · Feb 2, 2023

IMoL said:
You can find linear lightroom profiles for most cameras as well as info about why they are useful here: https://goodlight.us/linear-profiles.html

Thank you for the website that explains what a linear profile is and the links for download. It is very helpful.

ymc226 · Feb 2, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
See my last post. Maybe you can check the LR histogram the same way as I checked it and the blinkies on my digital camera. Just aim the camera at a gray card and set the exposure so it;s correct. It should be in the middle of the histogram. Than increase the exposure using the camera's compensating dial to see how many stops before it clips on the right. Then do the same thing on the black side.

What are your results? How many stops at each end? Do the histograms and clipping occur on both the camera and LR with the same exposure adjustments?

That is a great idea Alan. I haven't been able to go back to my separate office/photo processing apartment which is different from my house so I will give it a try once I have more time.

ymc226 · Feb 2, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
The tone curve panel is what you want to apply on top of what Lightroom does as part of its profile. In the Develop module, there is a profile selection (right above the white balance dropper tool). It's probably set to "Adobe Color" or "Adobe Standard" depending on the version of LR you run. This profile has a whole set of baked in settings for color saturation, contrast, and tone curve that it applies under the covers that the develop module then allows you to layer your settings on top of. You want to set up your own LR profile that is as flat as possible so instead of selecting "Adobe Color" or "Adobe Standard", you select your own profile to apply. There are plenty of tutorials online that cover doing this.

In your camera, you can also set up a picture profile that has as little contrast and saturation dialed into it. I'm not familiar with Nikon cameras, but on Canons it's called picture style and I always go in to their "Faithful" style and turn the contrast and sharpness all the way down and dial the saturation down by a couple notches.

In the LR Histogram, if the over or under exposure is showing clipping, you're losing information.

Thank you Adrian for the explanation and recommendations. There is so much potential for manipulation in LR (among other post processing programs) that it is easy to get lost unless one has a strong vision of the end result. Getting back to film hopefully will remove many of the options that are a time suck to me regarding digital post processing.

Exposure and focus settings when scanning via digital camera

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency