Exposure and focus settings when scanning via digital camera

ymc226 · Jan 30, 2023

Just wanted to update my progress. I finally got delivery of the scanning equipment from Negative Supply, downloaded Negative Lab Pro and dug up my old negatives. I am still trying to set up the camera and lens correctly. Attached is a photo of the set up and a 35mm scan. The actual scan in LR Classic is much sharper than the jpeg on this post.

A few questions:

If the camera is used only for scanning, can I leave it attached full time or should I remove it after each session? Just wondering about the weight hanging there.
my 15 ft Tether Tools cable works in transferring data but does not power the camera. The Nikon supplied cable is too short but it also provides power and transfers data. Can anyone recommend a 15' cable that could provide both? I am using an OWC Thunderbolt Dock so should be able to power the camera.
specific for the Nikon Z7, can the back screen be programmed to show the histogram while in live view?

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

People forget to realize that one processes the images to one's own taste.
In my shot Mr T's background was bubble gum pink/ The train looks like it looked. The sky? Adjusted to taste

Nikon N80, 18-35G, C200.

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

albireo said:
Bubblegum colours.

Colorperfect is leagues ahead.

Also, if you think these NLP colours are good, don't try a Nikon film scanner + Nikonscan. Its colours on C41 will make you reassess your life choices and your money spent on Finnish-made 3D printed DSLR scanning film holders.

No chance in most people trying a Nikon film scanner - no longer available. Unless you know something I don't?

I use the Nikon ES-2 holders, or the excellent Lomo Digitliza ones. What Finnish items are you referring to?

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

C200, NLP

madNbad · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
Just wanted to update my progress. I finally got delivery of the scanning equipment from Negative Supply, downloaded Negative Lab Pro and dug up my old negatives. I am still trying to set up the camera and lens correctly. Attached is a photo of the set up and a 35mm scan. The actual scan in LR Classic is much sharper than the jpeg on this post.

A few questions:

If the camera is used only for scanning, can I leave it attached full time or should I remove it after each session? Just wondering about the weight hanging there.

my 15 ft Tether Tools cable works in transferring data but does not power the camera. The Nikon supplied cable is too short but it also provides power and transfers data. Can anyone recommend a 15' cable that could provide both? I am using an OWC Thunderbolt Dock so should be able to power the camera.

specific for the Nikon Z7, can the back screen be programmed to show the histogram while in live view?

I have a Tether Tools cable from my Sony to the iMac and leave it plugged in. I was at a local camera shop today and the owner asked me about my set up and if it needed a separate charger. I hadn’t really thought about it but then realized since moving to the tethered cable, I haven’t changed the battery. I just checked now and it’s showing 100 percent. Don’t worry about the camera on the stand, my Sony with the not particularly light FE90 2.8 Macro has been mounted for almost two years and is as solid as the day it was mounted. Can’t help you with the Nikon charging issue.
What speakers are those amps driving?

Helge · Jan 30, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
There is no need for multiple exposures, even so called "low dynamic range" Canon cameras have more than enough DR to capture negatives with lots of discrete tone values. Put the camera in manual mode, set the ISO to the lowest standard setting for your camera, and the aperture to at least f/5.6, though a smaller aperture will give you more DoF to deal with any lingering negative unevenness, then set your shutter speed to whatever exposure gives you the brightest exposure of blank film base plus fog you can get without clipping anything. Focusing close will change your exposure, so do this after framing up and focusing. If you're scanning uncut rolls, and you're using negative supply film carrier you only need to focus once at the start. If your shutter speed is too long to get a clean picture with no movement, you can open your your aperture up a little, or raise your ISO a little, but the best thing you can do is add more light. With continuous lights, it's nearly impossible to have too much light.

RE Focus: Use autofocus. I set my camera to only focus when I push the back AF button so it doesn't try to focus on every frame, then I set my focus point to single point in the center of the frame and put one of the films frame edges right there so you have a nice vertical line to focus on and focus for that roll. Then after you set your exposure to give you maximum unclipped brightness for blank film base plus fog, run though and digitize the roll. Post processing to get a positive image is another thing that could easily eat a whole other thread

Very faint shadow information might get bloomed out.
Reversal processed film, colour or B&W, might have plenty of density to warrant two or more exposures.
And of course many spatial exposures can be used to extract all the resolving power of the film and avoid aliasing.

madNbad · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
Just wanted to update my progress. I finally got delivery of the scanning equipment from Negative Supply, downloaded Negative Lab Pro and dug up my old negatives. I am still trying to set up the camera and lens correctly. Attached is a photo of the set up and a 35mm scan. The actual scan in LR Classic is much sharper than the jpeg on this post.

A few questions:

If the camera is used only for scanning, can I leave it attached full time or should I remove it after each session? Just wondering about the weight hanging there.

my 15 ft Tether Tools cable works in transferring data but does not power the camera. The Nikon supplied cable is too short but it also provides power and transfers data. Can anyone recommend a 15' cable that could provide both? I am using an OWC Thunderbolt Dock so should be able to power the camera.

specific for the Nikon Z7, can the back screen be programmed to show the histogram while in live view?

You may want to consider adding a hood, it really helps with cutting down on extraneous light and improves contrast.

ymc226 · Jan 30, 2023

madNbad said:
I have a Tether Tools cable from my Sony to the iMac and leave it plugged in. I was at a local camera shop today and the owner asked me about my set up and if it needed a separate charger. I hadn’t really thought about it but then realized since moving to the tethered cable, I haven’t changed the battery. I just checked now and it’s showing 100 percent. Don’t worry about the camera on the stand, my Sony with the not particularly light FE90 2.8 Macro has been mounted for almost two years and is as solid as the day it was mounted. Can’t help you with the Nikon charging issue.
What speakers are those amps driving?

madNbad said:
You may want to consider adding a hood, it really helps with cutting down on extraneous light and improves contrast.

Thanks, I called Tether Tools just now and the cable should provide power to the camera. I will have to check again. The amp you see is a headphone amp, the Woo Audio WA5-LE. I use either the Sennheiser 800S or HiFiMan HE1000 headphones. It's set up but I have not powered it on since I moved back to Cali early 2020.

Good suggestion regarding the hood, I will attach the lens hood.

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

More negativelabpro with C200:

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
..

specific for the Nikon Z7, can the back screen be programmed to show the histogram while in live view?

Hmm, weird. I can see the histogram in the VF, but not on the back screen..
I've never worried about exposure though with the Z7 scanning film. As you scan in NEF, the camera pretty much gets the exposure right anyway plus the NEF files have so much DR.

madNbad · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thanks, I called Tether Tools just now and the cable should provide power to the camera. I will have to check again. The amp you see is a headphone amp, the Woo Audio WA5-LE. I use either the Sennheiser 800S or HiFiMan HE1000 headphones. It's set up but I have not powered it on since I moved back to Cali early 2020.

Good suggestion regarding the hood, I will attach the lens hood.

I'm using a Negative Supply Pro Riser 2. Bought it in early 2020 and made a few modifications. I added a Really Right Stuff 80mm Arca-Swiss clamp with a knob to hold the camera. I also used a lock washer and locking nut when I attached it to the riser arm. The other was adding longer cap head bolts for the feet so the cable from the 5X7 Lightsource Pro would slide under the legs of the risers legs.
It's all a learning process and once the camera is locked in place and you have your post processing figured out, it takes very little time to scan and convert a roll. Your test looks really good and most importantly, as always, have fun.

madNbad · Jan 30, 2023

Huss said:
More negativelabpro with C200:

I see there are a few more people on the beach. And clouds, too!

ymc226 · Jan 30, 2023

Huss said:
Hmm, weird. I can see the histogram in the VF, but not on the back screen..
I've never worried about exposure though with the Z7 scanning film. As you scan in NEF, the camera pretty much gets the exposure right anyway plus the NEF files have so much DR.

Thanks, I just wanted to view the live histogram while the blank film leader is in the holder to adjust exposure to just under clipping as was recommended earlier in the thread. When you say the camera gets the exposure right, do you mean you manually adjust exposure or use matrix or other type of in camera metering?

ymc226 · Jan 30, 2023

madNbad said:
I'm using a Negative Supply Pro Riser 2. Bought it in early 2020 and made a few modifications. I added a Really Right Stuff 80mm Arca-Swiss clamp with a knob to hold the camera. I also used a lock washer and locking nut when I attached it to the riser arm. The other was adding longer cap head bolts for the feet so the cable from the 5X7 Lightsource Pro would slide under the legs of the risers legs.
It's all a learning process and once the camera is locked in place and you have your post processing figured out, it takes very little time to scan and convert a roll. Your test looks really good and most importantly, as always, have fun.

I did think of attaching a RRS clamp to the riser but then would need a plate for the camera . . . too many parts for me to just have the camera easily detachable. I'm happy with the scan, just almost SOOC to NLP with a little tweak of tone in LR Classic. If I got that result from wet printing with my limited darkroom skills, I would be ecstatic. With the date imprinted between the frames, the photo was taken with a Nikon F6 and I almost exclusively used Fuji Neopan Acros 400 back then developed in HC-110.

Steven Lee · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
If the camera is used only for scanning, can I leave it attached full time or should I remove it after each session? Just wondering about the weight hanging there.

I think it's a wonderful thing if you can afford it. Reassembling the rig for each scanning session is a huge PITA, because you have to align the focus plane with film every time. It's gotten so annoying that I allocated a camera 100% dedicated to scanning. It is always mounted, always aligned, always connected to a computer and ready to go 24/7. This removed the remaining pain out of scanning.

TLDR: yes

Huss · Jan 30, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thanks, I just wanted to view the live histogram while the blank film leader is in the holder to adjust exposure to just under clipping as was recommended earlier in the thread. When you say the camera gets the exposure right, do you mean you manually adjust exposure or use matrix or other type of in camera metering?

I just use the matrix metering, and just look at the back screen. If I need to give it more exposure, I use the exp compensation. But honestly I never do.
Trust your Z7.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 31, 2023

ymc226 said:
specific for the Nikon Z7, can the back screen be programmed to show the histogram while in live view?

I can't comment specifically on the Z7, but typically, the histogram will only show on the live-view if the live view is set to show the actual exposure. On Canon cameras, this is called exposure simulation and is a setting in the live-view options. If you turn off exposure simulation, the histogram goes away, turn it on, you can get the histogram. I'm sure Nikon has something similar.

Huss · Jan 31, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
I can't comment specifically on the Z7, but typically, the histogram will only show on the live-view if the live view is set to show the actual exposure. On Canon cameras, this is called exposure simulation and is a setting in the live-view options. If you turn off exposure simulation, the histogram goes away, turn it on, you can get the histogram. I'm sure Nikon has something similar.

I have it set like that but it only shows it in the VF, not on the back screen. These mirrorless cameras are live view all the time.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 31, 2023

Helge said:
Very faint shadow information might get bloomed out.
Reversal processed film, colour or B&W, might have plenty of density to warrant two or more exposures.
And of course many spatial exposures can be used to extract all the resolving power of the film and avoid aliasing.

1. Not in my experience, though I use lenses that are very modern and don't flair much. As long as you're not clipping any of the sensor channels, you'll have *lots* of discrete tone values for shadows. Your experience may vary depending on the quality of the lens you're using.

2. I process a lot of C-41, E-6, and BW and have yet to run across a frame where I thought I could get a better result by doing multiple exposures, though, again, I run very modern equipment, which performs significantly better than stuff from now going on 20 years ago. Could there be emulsions/frames that could warrant more than one exposure? Sure, though, in my experience, that's a very rare exception. Modern equipment does not have the same performance as old equipment, so comparing the two is fraught with all kinds of potential issues. "Low dynamic range" on modern equipment is very relative to other modern equipment. Compared to stuff from even 10 years ago, it's actually very performant. Even Canon, the laggard of the all the camera manufacturers in the dynamic range department generally has both more resolution, and dynamic range improvements with every single camera release, so while they're generally behind the likes of Sony and Nikon for dynamic range, old film scanning equipment is still the same as it was back in the day, meanwhile, digital cameras have seen incremental improvements every couple years for a long time now, and those improvements really start to cumulatively stack up over time. Going back and looking at the output from a Canon digital camera from 10-15 years ago and one from today... The difference in dynamic range, noise levels, and color rendering is startling.

3. True, doing multi-exposure can gain you more resolution, and if you really need that and don't mind spending a huge amount of time working out all the additional intricacies that something like that will introduce, knock yourself out, however, in my experience, for the average shooter, 20-30MP, or about 6000x4000 pixels is plenty for most uses, and things like aliasing aren't really an issue unless you're using a camera that doesn't have an optical anti-aliasing filter (most digital cameras do). In all honesty, overall it's cheaper to just shoot a larger film format than to try to keep extracting ever more detail out of a smaller film format. The vast majority of film shooters today don't have the technical competence to put enough resolution down onto film to make it worth trying to extract much more than a standard 20-30MP from 35mm film, and those that do, prefer to do their own so that they control the image pipeline.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 31, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thanks, I just wanted to view the live histogram while the blank film leader is in the holder to adjust exposure to just under clipping as was recommended earlier in the thread. When you say the camera gets the exposure right, do you mean you manually adjust exposure or use matrix or other type of in camera metering?

Another way to do it (and this is the way I do it because I use flash) is to take a few test exposures and just look at the histogram on the image playback, make the needed adjustments, then, when it's good, wipe the card, take the film base plus fog as the first frame so you have your black levels reference, then digitize the roll.

ymc226 · Jan 31, 2023

Adrian Bacon said:
I can't comment specifically on the Z7, but typically, the histogram will only show on the live-view if the live view is set to show the actual exposure. On Canon cameras, this is called exposure simulation and is a setting in the live-view options. If you turn off exposure simulation, the histogram goes away, turn it on, you can get the histogram. I'm sure Nikon has something similar.

Adrian Bacon said:
Another way to do it (and this is the way I do it because I use flash) is to take a few test exposures and just look at the histogram on the image playback, make the needed adjustments, then, when it's good, wipe the card, take the film base plus fog as the first frame so you have your black levels reference, then digitize the roll.

Thanks Adrian,

I just quickly perused through the small 500+ page PDF Z7 and there is both a RBG histogram and combined histogram that are only available for review once the picture is taken. No big deal though, just as you suggested, I will take a photo first and then review the VF screen. Luckily, no need to have a memory card in the camera as it takes either XQD or CFexpress B cards only. I don't have any of these types of cards as none of my other cameras use them. The Z7 is dedicated only for digital scanning.

Might be a silly question but will it be the same, as the camera is tethered to import directly into LR Classic, to use the histogram on the upper right of the LR window instead of the camera's histogram?

I can also use Huss' method of just leaving the camera on matrix metering and compare the 2 methods.

Alan Edward Klein · Jan 31, 2023

ymc226 said:
Thanks Adrian,

I just quickly perused through the small 500+ page PDF Z7 and there is both a RBG histogram and combined histogram that are only available for review once the picture is taken. No big deal though, just as you suggested, I will take a photo first and then review the VF screen. Luckily, no need to have a memory card in the camera as it takes either XQD or CFexpress B cards only. I don't have any of these types of cards as none of my other cameras use them. The Z7 is dedicated only for digital scanning.

Might be a silly question but will it be the same, as the camera is tethered to import directly into LR Classic, to use the histogram on the upper right of the LR window instead of the camera's histogram?

I can also use Huss' method of just leaving the camera on matrix metering and compare the 2 methods.

Can you select the RAW or JPEG image to be tethered to the LR's histogram?

Adrian Bacon · Jan 31, 2023

ymc226 said:
Might be a silly question but will it be the same, as the camera is tethered to import directly into LR Classic, to use the histogram on the upper right of the LR window instead of the camera's histogram?

You could do that, but just be aware that LR applies its own tone curve to raw images. It'd be worth it to set up a flat or linear profile for your camera so that you get a more accurate exposure relative to sensor clipping, though in all honesty, if all you ever shoot is new film, you'll quickly discover that all c-41 film base plus fog is less than a stop difference from each other, and usually less than half a stop difference from each other, so once you find out what your exposure is for a given film base plus fog where you're getting maximum exposure with no clipping, pretty much everything else will be minor +- 1/3 stop changes as long as your shooting distance and light remains the same. The same goes for BW. They're all very close to each other, so once you get that worked out, it'll be a matter of setting it to the most common setting, taking a test shot and looking to verify you're not clipping, then maybe bumping it up or down by a third of a stop. Older films can deviate from that, but that's the general gist.

Adrian Bacon · Jan 31, 2023

Alan Edward Klein said:
Can you select the RAW or JPEG image to be tethered to the LR's histogram?

No. The histogram always shows the rendered image, not what it'd be for the raw values.

George Mann · Jan 31, 2023

I am looking for the most reasonably priced adaptor of sufficient quality to enable me to "scan" my film (mostly B&W) with my Nikon D2x (40mm focal length?), using Raw Therapee to process it.

The ES-2 seems overpriced for what it is, and I don't know how good the LOMO is. Are there any others?

Exposure and focus settings when scanning via digital camera

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