Experimental Poke (Polk) Berry Dye for Cyanotype Tinting

[Kino]

While out doing some Fall yard work I noticed back in a fence row I typically don't pay much attention to, an abundance of Poke Berries fully ripened.

Remembering how I got into terrible trouble with my mother when, as a mere tyke, I picked a bunch and then wiped my hands on my shirt and pants. The deep magenta stain ruined my clothes and stained my hands for several days before it faded away. (BTW: No, I did not eat them. She caught me just as I was about to try one!)

That got me to thinking that it should be a good dye to experiment with overall or selective tinting Cyanotype prints.

I therefore gathered about 225 grams of ripe berries, crushed them and covered them with about 175ml of 91% Iso Alcohol. I plan to leave them overnight and then strain the liquid through doubled-up coffee filters into a small brown bottle, top it off with more Alcohol and maybe put a drop of Formaldehyde in for preservative.

But now, I am wondering if, rather than topping it off with Alcohol, I should top it off with Acetic Acid, as Cyanotypes (I read) tend to hold their blue color better when biased to acid?

Anyone have any suggestions or experience with natural dyes and Cyanotype tinting?

 

[F4U]

Off hand I'd say it would likely stain the paper about as much as the image on it. GL. I'll be interested in following this.

 

[aconbere]

My wife used poke to dye hand spun wool last year with really astonishing results. So unfortunately I agree with F4U I think this will make your paper an amazing magenta.

 

[Kino]

My wife use poke to dye hand spun wool last year with really astonishing results. So unfortunately I agree with F4U I think this will make your paper an amazing magenta.

Oh, no doubt the stuff is brutally strong, but I would assume heavily diluted it might work somehow.

I probably made a lifetime supply in that one little container!

 

[aconbere]

Oh, no doubt the stuff is brutally strong, but I would assume heavily diluted it might work somehow.

I probably made a lifetime supply in that one little container!

Certainly can’t hurt to try! Do you have the Golaz book on cyanotype toning? It might be a useful reference.

(As an aside we liked the dye so much we cultivated this massive weed of a plant for use this year )

 

[Kino]

Certainly can’t hurt to try! Do you have the Golaz book on cyanotype toning? It might be a useful reference.

(As an aside we liked the dye so much we cultivated this massive weed of a plant for use this year )

No, I don't. Will have to find a copy now that you mention it!

I don't have to "cultivate" my patch, I have tried everything short of Agent Orange to kill it off!

 

[aconbere]

No, I don't. Will have to find a copy now that you mention it!

I don't have to "cultivate" my patch, I have tried everything short of Agent Orange to kill it off!

I should have put “cultivate” in quotes

 

[Kino]

I should have put “cultivate” in quotes

Yeah, it does really well in just about any climate short of desert or tundra!

 

[koraks]

Off hand I'd say it would likely stain the paper about as much as the image on it.

Yes, my thought, too.

 

[Franswa]

What if you were to use just the skin of the berries only? I could see that potentially working.

 

[Kino]

What if you were to use just the skin of the berries only? I could see that potentially working.

After the mess this caused, I think I will wait another year to perhaps try only the skins!

I had to strain and triple filter the resulting fluid to get the pulp out of the liquid, so that might be a good suggestion.

The end result is less violent than I had anticipated, but it is still very, very strong.

Still would like to know if adding acetic acid would help with the colorfast properties of the dye on cyanotype. Meanwhile, I will check on the book mentioned above...

 

[fgorga]

A couple of thoughts...

Prussian blue is susceptible to hydrolysis in alkali causing image to bleach out. This is part of the traditional methods for toning cyanotypes. The most commonly used alkali is sodium carbonate. Ammonia is also used sometimes. After bleaching one then soaks the print in the toning agent.

Golaz's method involves making extracts of plant materials by boiling the plant materiel in either distilled water or in a solution of 0.5 g / L calcium carbonate (chalk) and soaking the print in the hot solution. Some materials give better results using distilled water and others using the calcium carbonate solution. Yet others give acceptable, but different, results in either solvent.

Here are a couple of my posts dealing with these topics...

On the Toning of Cyanotypes

I recently started up making cyanotypes again after a hiatus of about twelve years. Although I enjoy the Prussian blue of the native cyanotype, I also enjoy the variety of tones made available by further treating a cyanotype to alter its tone. However, one of the things I was dissatisfied with...

www.photrio.com

Cyanotype toning options

Since we had a little discussion in a different thread, which wasn't really intended to dive deeper into this subject, I thought I'd open a new thread to focus just on different toners for cyanotype prints. I've done a lot of cyanotype printing and was interested in getting colours different...

www.photrio.com

I don't know of any experiments involving the toning of cyanotypes in acidic solutions. If you do try toning under acidic conditions I'll be very interested in seeing the results.

A comparison of alkali, 'plain' water and acid might be very interesting. ;-)

As others have suggested, I expect that there will be significant staining of the paper/highlights but one won't know for sure until you do the experiment!

 

[koraks]

The end result is less violent than I had anticipated, but it is still very, very strong.

You could use it as a medium for anthotypes.

 

[Kino]

Lots of possibilities here; thanks everyone!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Don't quote me on this but I seem to recall acid helps with staining paper.

I've tried a bunch of things over the years but the tried and true few work the best.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Relative to pokeberry juice and paper: the United States Declaration of Independence was written in pokeberry ink (it was what they had in Philadelphia at the time), and though it has faded some, the writing (with archival care) is still readable nearly 250 years later.

It might be interesting to dye the paper with the juice first and then use the alternative cyanotype formula that prints white (IIRC, ferrOcyanide replaces the ferrIcyanide).

 

[Don_ih]

Funny you're looking at using berries. I have a massive number of Virginia Creeper berries which are rich in oxalic acid (and inedible) and was wondering if that could be useful for something.

Oh, and if anyone knows of a use for nightshade berries, let me know.

Only poisonous things grow wild around here.

 

[MattKing]

Oh, and if anyone knows of a use for nightshade berries, let me know.

An Ontario version of Midsomer Murders?

 

[Kino]

Started by just trying various paper scraps around to see how it would affect them and ... no effect whatsoever.

Startled that it has ZERO ability to tint my watercolor paper that i use for cyanotypes.

Took 500 ml of distilled water, added 30 ml of the dye concentrate and 25ml of working strength stop bath in a small tray.

The liquid is almost black, a deep magenta, but even soaking plain Canson XL and Strathmore Watercolor (both 140 lb), absolutely NO EFFECT.

Bizarre. Must be the sizing in the paper.

I even tried soaking an RC reject print; which did turn a healthy magenta in the bath, but upon rinsing, it all just washed off easily.

I had hoped to tint the paper first and then expose cyanotype over the tint, but guess that's not going to work.

Maybe I will try putting a small portion in with the A+B mix and, if it doesn't coagulate or precipitate, see what happens.

 

[pentaxuser]

So it had no effect on plain paper - no stain at all? I wonder why it has lasted 250 years when used as ink on the Declaration?

pentaxuser

 

[Kino]

So it had no effect on plain paper - no stain at all? I wonder why it has lasted 250 years when used as ink on the Declaration?

pentaxuser

That was Oak Gall Ink; very different. I also just tried some near newspaper quality drawing paper I found in my wife's drawing supplies and it just barely retains a light magenta after a 10 minute soak. This paper is also disintegrating in the tray...

Maybe I need to make the dye bath super acidic with 28% acetic acid?

 

[pentaxuser]

That was Oak Gall Ink; very different. I also just tried some near newspaper quality drawing paper I found in my wife's drawing supplies and it just barely retains a light magenta after a 10 minute soak. This paper is also disintegrating in the tray...

Maybe I need to make the dye bath super acidic with 28% acetic acid?

I was merely quoting Donald's comment on the Declaration being "written in pokeberry ink " and lasting 250 years and was wondering how to reconcile his comment with your experience but if it was a different ink then that may be how we reconcile the two apparently diametrically opposed statements

It just raised my curiosity index as to many statements on Photrio

pentaxuser

 

[Kino]

I was merely quoting Donald's comment on the Declaration being "written in pokeberry ink " and lasting 250 years and was wondering how to reconcile his comment with your experience but if it was a different ink then that may be how we reconcile the two apparently diametrically opposed statements

It just raised my curiosity index as to many statements on Photrio

pentaxuser

OK, I see. Well, it is possible the drafts were written in pokeberry ink, which was a cheap alternative to the Oak Gall. However, the final document(s) were written using Oak Gall.

 

[Franswa]

Have the berries been boiled? If so I may have missed that

 

[Kino]

Have the berries been boiled? If so I may have missed that

No, they were not.