Evaluation of the possible production of a new panoramic 120 Camera

StoneNYC · Mar 13, 2014

I think the biggest issue is the few people who would use this and for what application?

Only a few would buy it, perhaps 10 in the world who could afford and justify the need for such a camera. There's no practical application, so the only use is either fun, or to be "different" but it would only be good for one project and then you would be repetitive using the same 360 for everything you shoot.

So I don't personally see there being much of a market, not enough to justify creating it.

The ONLY market, would be the Lomo crowd, I would contact Lomography and suggest a partnership with them for sales of such a camera, it would be more popular as a cheaper plastic unit than as a professional well built camera.

My opinion.

Pioneer · Mar 13, 2014

Boy I bet you are glad you asked this question here Mirko. :confused:

Where else would you be able to touch base with this many market research experts!

What did we ever do before the internet?

jcc · Mar 13, 2014

I personally don't have a "need" for it, but I also don't have a need for 35mm cameras, yet I use them regularly, because their size is an advantage to my larger format cameras. Which bring me to ask (I think someone might have asked this already, but) what are the advantages of this system? I assume from the photo that it has some sort of robotic rotation synced with film advancement and shutter? Can it pan in both, left and right, directions or just one way? Are the lenses interchangeable, if so how does the user correct for parallax (as there is no viewfinder visible); if not, is it fair to assume that it already pivots about the nodal point? Since there is no viewfinder visible, how does the user know what is going to be in the frame? Will there be frames, or is it a continuous single 6x~80cm image? Instead of a rotating panorama, can it be hacked to do a side-shifting panorama (e.g., Ed Ruscha's Every Building on the Sunset Strip)? Ok, enough with the curios questions... I like the programmable angle idea, instead of only 360º. To give a fair answer to the OP's question, I think more info is needed about this setup's capabilities.

Curt · Mar 13, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I have no need ,intrest or desire in such a camera but question APUG to be used as a market research tool.Mabe Sean can create a separatw Forum topic for this kind of thing.

Well that saved me the trouble of saying it myself!

Fixcinater · Mar 13, 2014

I would have no use for this camera, no matter the price point.

Tom1956 · Mar 13, 2014

It's a shame there's no expressed desire for such an invention. Either society has been so dumbed down, or the computer and its peripherals have removed much meaning in life. Or both.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2014

I have a Noblex 150 and a 7x17" camera, and I've owned a 6x17 back which I've sold, and I sometimes shoot half-frame 8x10". I've also stitched digital panoramas, and there's no question in my mind that a continuous swing-lens image is better than a stitched panorama made of discrete frames. If there's a moving subject, you'll always have some bad stitches on close inspection, and there's always some distortion introduced by remapping a faceted image as if it were a continuous swing-lens image.

But most people don't notice these problems, particularly if they've never knowingly seen a real swing-lens image, and it's incredibly convenient to be able to shoot the occasional pano with a DSLR that you're already using. So it's going to be a hard sell, figuring this is going to be an expensive camera, like the Globuscope and similar cameras have always been, and was the Globuscope ever a really big seller?

But maybe it could be paired with software for 360 VR imaging, but how popular is that, really? Even with a tool as easy to use as Photosynth, it's a fair amount of work to produce a good one, and there aren't so many subjects suited to that treatment. Maybe someone doing some high-end architectural photography could be interested in a 360 degree medium format camera for making very detailed 360 VR images.

It seems like the kind of camera that a few specialists would want, and that would make a good rental for occasional use.

AgX · Mar 13, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I have no need ,intrest or desire in such a camera but question APUG to be used as a market research tool.Mabe Sean can create a separatw Forum topic for this kind of thing.

This very "Partner Forum" IS the forum for the Adox sponsor to report and question about his products.

MattKrull · Mar 13, 2014

While I have interest in wide panoramic cameras, my interest stops short of the 180 degree span. 360 is beyond my interest.

That said, I am hugely greatful that Adox is asking questions like this and working to keep film alive and interesting. Thanks Agx.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 13, 2014

I agree that the use of the camera might be viable to a much wider audience if the rotation could be programmable.

Jamie Young usually shows up at Bill Schwab's Photostock event in Michigan, and he brings Cirkut cameras with him to make full rotation panoramic shots of the group of people there. I know it's really difficult for him to find film and to keep the craft going. If this was for standard 35mm or 120 film, the format would be more viable again.

Our local hero Chris Faust just did commissioned staff portraits for a big local bank, using his Cirkut with hundreds of employees in the same frame, with a very old camera (that he had to repair on the spot) and on what was probably fairly ancient film. But he got the job done, so I think there might even be some commercial viability here.

I have personally been interested in photographing in panoramic format, but more printing 8x18" prints from 35mm film, because I like the grain that I get in them.

I would imagine that most people would be scanning their film, since 120 is too small to be contact printed (for most people), and incredibly difficult to enlarge unless there was some kind of roller transport with film and paper moving in unison, or specialized enlargers. What's the vision with respect to output from this camera?

Those are some thoughts that will hopefully stimulate the discussion and add a positive flavor.

omaha · Mar 13, 2014

FWIW (surely nothing) my take on this is that it looks interesting. More than anything, I'm pleased to see that there is enough life in the world of film that people are even thinking about new product development. That alone surprises me. I would truly love to see these things take off, causing countless miles of film to be consumed by eager users.

All that being said, I can't imagine buying one of these. I'm just not interested in panoramas, so I'm not the market anyway.

This does seem like an example of "if the crowd is running north, walk south", which may be the opportunity. The action in panoramas is using Gigapan to take monster images at events so people can zoom in and tag themselves on Facebook. That's fine, but doesn't really interest me either.

Anyway, I wish Adox all the best, and thank them for their efforts.

naaldvoerder · Mar 13, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I have no need ,intrest or desire in such a camera but question APUG to be used as a market research tool.Mabe Sean can create a separatw Forum topic for this kind of thing.

I beg to differ. I know Tim Rudman used APUG to probe the market for the re-issue of his Toning book, and you yourself used APUG to let us know about the second issue of WBM. I applaud this, as I do Adox probing the market for this new venture. Hopefully it will help them to allocate funds wisely, choosing between their various project, not least of which the ressurection of Polywarmtone!

horacekenneth · Mar 13, 2014

Excited that there is talk of designing a new camera - not too excited about a 360 degree panoramic.

railwayman3 · Mar 13, 2014

Tom1956 said:
It's a shame there's no expressed desire for such an invention. Either society has been so dumbed down, or the computer and its peripherals have removed much meaning in life. Or both.

Don't think it's that. But I imagine many amateur users such as myself have coveted lots of beautiful gear over the years, but with no chance of ever buying or using it. I'd love a camera like this, but, being realistic, couldn't afford it and, tbh, don't need it. I've so much photo gear now, and so many projects I'd like to do, that I've no hope of doing all ideas which I have in my lifetime !

MattKing · Mar 13, 2014

This would be considerably more viable in the market if the resulting negative could be easily scanned. For instance, in a holder for an Epson 700/750 scanner.

And if it could also be enlarged using a 5x7 enlarger, even better.

SebastianKrauss · Mar 13, 2014

I don't see a market for that one. Perhaps 20 a year?

I have another product idea even if it is completely off topic:
What about a basic "small" 8x10 enlarger which fits on a desk with normal room height and allows a 20x24 enlargement with a 240mm lens? All those used Laborators etc. are huge monsters which do not fit in most darkrooms. I think that could have a potential market.

best
sk

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 13, 2014

David A. Goldfarb said:
It seems like the kind of camera that a few specialists would want, and that would make a good rental for occasional use.

Maybe scratch that last bit with the news today about Calumet. They would have been the obvious rental house for a camera like this. Of course there are others, but with Calumet, you had a network of rental houses in various cities.

TheToadMen · Mar 13, 2014

Hi Mirko,
Yes: I certainly would be interested. But there is a limit to my budget as well.
I would like to see the possibility to choose between different angles of panorama, not only 360 degrees.
Best if one could adjust manually, otherwise increments with 30 degrees from from 60 up to 360 degrees would be nice.

Furthermore, it would be nice if the lens could be interchangeable. This would make the camera itself less expensive. But choosing what type of lens mount is a whole other story. Maybe interchangeable as well??

Thanks,
Bert from Holland

AgX · Mar 13, 2014

All the features asked for in this thread have already been on the market in existing, modern cameras. The only outstanding feature of the "Adorama" would be that it would be new off the shelf.

Offering different lens mounts as such should not be a problem, but optical problems might already arise at this stage. At least with the urge to change focal lengths. That would necessitate a basically different design.

ME Super · Mar 14, 2014

AgX said:
Were it not already given ADORAMA would be a nice name...

What about PanADOX?

I probably would not have a use for such a camera. I'm happy that Adox is looking into new film camera development, though, and hope they can create a camera that will be a profitable item for them.

Sirius Glass · Mar 14, 2014

ME Super said:
What about PanADOX?

For those with a biochemical persuation: ParADOX and OthADOX

ADOX Fotoimpex · Mar 16, 2014

There have been so many posts that I hope to catch all questions with this answer:

1) The camera does not exist yet, the next step will be to build a prototype.
2) The price depends on the current cost for materials and quantities. We target a price below 3.000 EUR without tax.
3) 35mm lenses are fine to use because of the slot image (you don´t need an image circle with full coverage). Other mounts than Nikon are possible but will be a custom modification with a price tag to it.
4) The format is ADJUSTABLE in about 5° increments. We might even allow self-programming via a PC. This all depends on the cameras success. This is a 2014 technology product.
Depending on the settings formats of e.g. 6x9, 6x12, 6x17, 6x24 etc. can be achived.
5) The times are adjustable as well

Mirko

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 16, 2014

PandorADOX?

TheToadMen · Mar 16, 2014

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
There have been so many posts that I hope to catch all questions with this answer:
(...)
2) The price depends on the current cost for materials and quantities. We target a price below 3.000 EUR without tax.
(...)
Mirko

Hi Mirko,
I believe this has the makings of a beautiful panoramic camera. I'm very interested.
Unfortunately, a price range close to 3.000 EUR is a lot more than I can afford.
But if you need someone to test the camera in the field, you're more than welcome.

Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

Dr Croubie · Mar 16, 2014

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
3) 35mm lenses are fine to use because of the slot image (you don´t need an image circle with full coverage). Other mounts than Nikon are possible but will be a custom modification with a price tag to it.

Just a suggestion, maybe put a Canon EF mount on it by default? EF is an almost 'universal acceptor', then you can mount any of Nikon, Pentax, M42, Leica R lenses. The more available lenses the more popular it might be. With a Nikon mount you can only really mount Nikon lenses (and MF goes with everything of course).

Evaluation of the possible production of a new panoramic 120 Camera

StoneNYC

Pioneer

jcc

Curt

Fixcinater

Tom1956

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

AgX

MattKrull

Thomas Bertilsson

omaha

naaldvoerder

horacekenneth

railwayman3

MattKing

Moderator

SebastianKrauss

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

TheToadMen

AgX

ME Super

Sirius Glass

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

Thomas Bertilsson

TheToadMen

Dr Croubie

Evaluation of the possible production of a new panoramic 120 Camera

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Moderator

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