Epson 3800 and Pizza Wheels

[Patrick Kolb]

I am just getting started making digital negatives with an Epson 3800 on Pictorico OHP and have been getting pizza wheels (tire tracks). I have tried using different settings for thickness, platen gap, and speed. When I look at the negative material I can see slight tracking even in the clear areas. I have used a thickness setting of 4, 5, and 6, since the stated thicknes on the film package states 5.2

Any suggestions? Thanks for your help.

 

[donbga]

I am just getting started making digital negatives with an Epson 3800 on Pictorico OHP and have been getting pizza wheels (tire tracks). I have tried using different settings for thickness, platen gap, and speed. When I look at the negative material I can see slight tracking even in the clear areas. I have used a thickness setting of 4, 5, and 6, since the stated thicknes on the film package states 5.2

Any suggestions? Thanks for your help.

Sounds like you may have too much ink deposition. How are you printing the negatives? With the Epson driver or QTR?

Don Bryant

 

[Patrick Kolb]

Hi Don,
Actually I am using a modified version of the Burkholder curve. The thing I noticed is that the marks are also showing in the clear portion of the negative. It seems that their is just too much pressure on the wheels and not a problem with the ink. I have tried settings to indicate a thicker material, but so far, not so much luck. Any ideas?
Patrick

 

[donbga]

Hi Don,
Actually I am using a modified version of the Burkholder curve. The thing I noticed is that the marks are also showing in the clear portion of the negative. It seems that their is just too much pressure on the wheels and not a problem with the ink. I have tried settings to indicate a thicker material, but so far, not so much luck. Any ideas?
Patrick

No, I'm sorry I don't.

Don Bryant

 

[clay]

Have you printed any of these yet? I get slight roller marks with my 7800, but they are not visible in the print.

 

[Patrick Kolb]

When I look at the negatives, they seem very bad when wet, but letting them dry seems to help. However, when I print them it seems a little worse. I wonder if maybe some of my basic settings for the 3800 might be wrong. The more I try to fix this, the more it seems to happen. I am a loss. I have tried changing the thickness settings, the platten gap, and printer settings.

 

[Donsta]

Definitely try printing before you decide you have a problem. As Clay has indicated, you can get an apprently visible pattern which does not print with UV. In the Epson driver, you can set a pause after each pass too - this will make printing take longer, but it will also give the ink more time to dry before it gets to the rollers...

 

[Patrick Kolb]

I printed three different negatives today and all looked better, but didn't correct the problem, still all three had the tracks. I made three more tests tonight, all with different settings, and will print them tomorrow. But they all seem to have the tracks even in the clear part of the negative. I will print them tomorrow and let you know. Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[clay]

One other thing you can do is to use a QTR approach, and configure the print curve to lay down a very light tone even in the zero-negative-density areas. Your print time will be slightly increased, but this will probably cover up any slight variations because of the rollers. Since these are in the clear areas, generally you are in the print toe area anyway, which for most processes tends to mash together adjacent tones - e.g. very black and very, very black are impossible to tell apart.

 

[sanking]

I would expect that if you used the QTR approach and download one of the appropriate profiles from Ron Reeder's web site the pizza wheels will probably go away. With the 3800 I get pizza wheel marks when trying to print with composite black ( which is basically what you are doing when applying a curve) but not with Ron's profile for palladium. I further modified the profile for carbon with an adjustment .acv photoshop curve but more recently, after working with Ron with QTR at a carbon workshop in Montana I now have a perfect QTR profile for carbon that does not require further adjustment. Ron also modified a QTR carbon profile for me that just uses the MK-LK inks that allows me to print on the Photowarehouse OHP with no pizza wheel marks. There is really a lot of potential with this approach.

Actually modifying the QTR profiles is a fairly complicated endeavor that requires a rather steep learning curve. However, now that Ron has placed a number of profiles for different printers on his website using QTR is a fairly simply procedure. You just download the Harrington QTR, place the specific QTR profile you want in in the Epson 3800 install files, and run the installation program. It is definitely the procedure I would recommend for the 3800 since some of the inks of the U3 inkset are slow drying and it difficult to get adequate UV blocking density without pizza wheels without eliminating or limiting the use of these inks.

Sandy King

One other thing you can do is to use a QTR approach, and configure the print curve to lay down a very light tone even in the zero-negative-density areas. Your print time will be slightly increased, but this will probably cover up any slight variations because of the rollers. Since these are in the clear areas, generally you are in the print toe area anyway, which for most processes tends to mash together adjacent tones - e.g. very black and very, very black are impossible to tell apart.

 

[Marco B]

You are probably are already doing this, but anyway:

I don't own a 3800, and haven't printed digital negatives either, but my R2400 has the ability to feet thick papers in a straight line through the printer. Contrary to feeding paper through the normal paper feeders, this means the paper will not need to bend around the rolllers. I guesse this would reduce the chances of pizza wheels on your negs.

Strangely, on my R2400, to make use of this option, you need to feed the paper from the front, and the paper will be ejected out of the back...

 

[Patrick Kolb]

Thank you all for your help. QTR is certainly on my list to do, but just getting the printer setup and working correctly seems difficult. Looking at the film material as it comes out of the printer, the pizza wheels also appear in the non-image area, which makes me think that there is something in my settings. I have tried different thicknesses (settings of 4, 5, 6), the Pictorico is 5.2 mil, and the 4 setting seems better than the other two. Tried different platen gaps and the wider setting was better, but still have them showing up.

Is there something I am missing in setting up the printer? Maybe as Marco suggested, I will try feeding the film differently.

 

[Marco B]

My reasoning is simply: the thicker and stiffer the material you try to feed through the printer, the more force the rollers will exert on the sheet to bend it, and increase the likelihood of tracks. Now since I have never handled this Pictorio OHP stuff, I can not tell you how important it is to avoid bending it.

So yes, if you haven't yet tried it, and your 3800 also allows straight line feeding (look up "Feeding thick paper" or something like it in the manual / help), than give it a try. It certainly won't hurt.

 

[Patrick Kolb]

Just a quick follow-up; I made three more negatives changing the setting in CS3 for thickness drying time, changing the paper feed, and gap size and they all look the same. If I try QTR what settings should I use for setting up the printer? What settings for CS3? Will all of this be explained in the manual?

 

[sanking]

Patrick,

I think you may have some more questions, but the QTR route is definitely much better than trying to work with the old .acv curves that were not even made for your 3800.

However, I am fairly well convinced that your problem with the pizza wheel marks is due to ink deposit density and QTR may eliminate that problem.

In any event, if you have more questions about the work flow once you get started just ask.

Sandy King

Just a quick follow-up; I made three more negatives changing the setting in CS3 for thickness drying time, changing the paper feed, and gap size and they all look the same. If I try QTR what settings should I use for setting up the printer? What settings for CS3? Will all of this be explained in the manual?

 

[carioca]

pizza wheels...

Patrick,
I have the 3800 for a year now, and I 'HAD' exactly the same problem. It is not a matter of QTR or other software!
The only way to get rid of the tracks is to use the FRONT FEED, simply because front feed does not use the pizza wheels!
You have to place your OHP sheet on a piece of card board as a support.
I have developed a simple technique (by accident) that allows me to safely fix the OHP on the support board (it's a bit tricky) and I'm more than happy to share this with you tomorrow...
It's past 1am in Paris and I'm dead tired.

Kind regards,
Sidney

 

[Patrick Kolb]

Very interesting Sidney, look forward to hearing more. So far I have made some progress, but not have not completely solved the probelm. I have used some of everyone's suggestions and seem to be on the right track (bad Pun).
Frist I tried to make the problem worse, but what I thought would do that, didn't. So I then knew something else had to be causing the problem. Finally, taking what everyone has suggested, I have decreased the ink flow, decreased the printing speed, increased the interval head delay when printing, and finally I have started to see some improvement. Prints are still wet, but they look better than any thing so far.

Now if this helps with the problem, I think that QTR is the way to go, everything I have read and people on this site seem to confirm this.

Thank you all.

 

[Colin Graham]

Patrick,
I have the 3800 for a year now, and I 'HAD' exactly the same problem. It is not a matter of QTR or other software!
The only way to get rid of the tracks is to use the FRONT FEED, simply because front feed does not use the pizza wheels!

Well, I can confirm this, at least initially, on my brand new 3800 with QTR- Sheet feed loading=pizza wheels tracks, front loading= no pizza wheels tracks. But even so they are very minor pin pricks and might not print though. Anyway, I'm used to front loading coming from a 9180 so it's no hardship.

 

[sanking]

Colin,

Front loading of Pictorico with the HP b9180 was necessary, but a big pain in the rear. I really liked the b9180 as a general purpose printer but eventually decided to sell it because of trouble loading Pictorico. Even the front loading mechanism gave me trouble from time to time.

Sandy King

Well, I can confirm this, at least initially, on my brand new 3800 with QTR- Sheet feed loading=pizza wheels tracks, front loading= no pizza wheels tracks. But even so they are very minor pin pricks and might not print though. Anyway, I'm used to front loading coming from a 9180 so it's no hardship.

 

[Colin Graham]

Oh wow- I hated it so at first, especially with the 13x19 sheets. But after a year of dealing it I must have gotten numb to it. But it really is pretty sweet just dropping a sheet of OHP in to top of the 3800. And in fact, I just did my first QTR carbon stepwedge and I can honestly say that I can't see the pizza tracks at all in the print from the sheet-fed step tablet. So I may just tuck the front loading tray away and forget it.

 

[carioca]

printing without pizza wheels on the 3800

Hi,
I was getting constant signs of the tracks in my highlight areas of my final print and it nearly drove me nuts, until I discovered the front feed method.
Here my way of printing without pizza wheels:
All rear paper feed options on the 3800 use the pizza wheels to accurately guide the paper through the printer. When the front feed is used, the printer uses only the rubber rollers, not the pizza wheels.

All it takes is a piece of rigid, perfectly flat card board, on which the OHP needs to be fixed in order to be guided safely through the printer.
I had a sample of 450gr inkjet poster board, that I had received from my paper supplier. It has an inkjet coating but is not archival, that's why I never bothered using it until I was in the need of a card board support for my OHP printing. I attached the OHP on the edges by means of POST IT (the yellow sticky notes). POST IT is sticky but not too sticky as regular tape, so it comes off easily, I thought. I had discovered that the inkjet surface actually 'grabs' very well the sticky part of the POST IT, to an extend that it partially retains it on it's surface, once pulled off.
Thus the idea. I took a regular piece of sturdy cardboard, about an inch larger than my OHP, covered it with a coat of glue out of a spray can and attached a sheet of cheap inkjet paper on it, permanently. I then placed a sheet of OHP on top, aligning it with two edges (front and right) of the card board, and pencil mark the corners on the inkjet surface (of the support we created). Now you place 4 POST IT notes in each corner (maybe 2mm more inward the marks we made) and fix them well by rubbing them on with the back of our finger nail. Then they are pulled off, leaving sticky substance behind, enough to safely fix your sheet of OHP and, without leaving any residue on the latter once pulled off. If kept clean, 'Sticky-Board' can be used many times.

Just be sure that the over all thickness of your support+OHP does not exceed the 1,5mm limit of the front feed slot. Be sure that the board is perfectly flat (no curly corners) prior to inserting it into the printer.
Refer to your manual for correctly using the front feed method.

Curves are difficult enough to create, that's why I prefer this method than adding another variable to curve creation.

I hope this helps, let me know if it worked,

Sidney

 

[Ben Altman]

I don't have a 3800, but it sounds from Sidney's post as if there is a mechanism to lift the pizza wheels when using thick material. On my 1800, the pizza wheels lift for printing on CD's, and it's a fairly simple matter to obstruct that mechanism just enough that they are lifted for regular printing. I use a small length of wire, at each end, under the frame that carries the wheels. Also, I make sure that the OHP comes out of the printer level, i.e. not drooping under it's own weight, which can force the surface still inside the printer up against the pizza wheels. The factory tray is a bit too low.

Ben

 

[sanking]

A major nuisance for me with front loading the HP b9180 was the fact that you needed sufficient clearance on the back side of the printer.

I am presuming that similar clearance wou ld be needed similar front loading of the Epson 3800?

Sandy King

Oh wow- I hated it so at first, especially with the 13x19 sheets. But after a year of dealing it I must have gotten numb to it. But it really is pretty sweet just dropping a sheet of OHP in to top of the 3800. And in fact, I just did my first QTR carbon stepwedge and I can honestly say that I can't see the pizza tracks at all in the print from the sheet-fed step tablet. So I may just tuck the front loading tray away and forget it.

 

[Colin Graham]

Hi Sandy,
For the 9180 I made a ramp out of some matt board covered with some mylar that directs the outfeed up the wall behind the printer, so I could keep it pretty tight to the wall. Space is at such a premium here that I have to keep the printer in a closet. I presume the same things would work for the 3800, although I've only been using 8.5x11" sheets to test with. I have a 17" roll to use up though and I'm looking forward to seeing how the top loading works for that.

I've also noticed that with the 3800 the backside of the OHP is really pristine compared the the 9180- I would always get some pretty good scratches on the reverse side of the material, even on smaller sheets. It never showed up in the prints though.

BTW, I really appreciate your input over on the Carbon forum about the printer- results so far are very encouraging! I agonized about boxing up the 9180 and trying something else, I really like that printer. But the QTR steps are wonderfully smooth and the few B&W prints I've done with the Advanced B&W mode are excellent. It looks like the 3800's reputation is well deserved.

 

[sanking]

Colin,

That was a case where my experience was directly relevant to the question you asked. You could say that I had already been there and done that before you and learned from the lesson.

The HP b9180 is a great printer for regular inkjet printing, both monochrome and color, but I was never satisfied with the front feed mechanism, and the regular sheet feeder did not work at all with OHP. I got to where I could make the front feed system work most of the time, but one day a piece of the OHP got stuck and jammed up the mechanism so bad that I had to return the printer for exchange. That, plus the fact that I was still getting some slight banding with digital negatives, was the final straw.

An additional advantage, huge at that, is that now that Ron Reeder has a 3800 and has posted some of his profiles the road to use of QTR is a lot easier. I have learned enough about QTR to make some simple changes myself but having a good working profile for your process puts one way ahead of the game.

Sandy

Hi Sandy,
For the 9180 I made a ramp out of some matt board covered with some mylar that directs the outfeed up the wall behind the printer, so I could keep it pretty tight to the wall. Space is at such a premium here that I have to keep the printer in a closet. I presume the same things would work for the 3800, although I've only been using 8.5x11" sheets to test with. I have a 17" roll to use up though and I'm looking forward to seeing how the top loading works for that.

I've also noticed that with the 3800 the backside of the OHP is really pristine compared the the 9180- I would always get some pretty good scratches on the reverse side of the material, even on smaller sheets. It never showed up in the prints though.

BTW, I really appreciate your input over on the Carbon forum about the printer- results so far are very encouraging! I agonized about boxing up the 9180 and trying something else, I really like that printer. But the QTR steps are wonderfully smooth and the few B&W prints I've done with the Advanced B&W mode are excellent. It looks like the 3800's reputation is well deserved.