Enlarging Meter-Timer

[Chan Tran]

Ah!
I don’t want to compete head to head with your existing product. Would you mind letting me know about it, or providing a link?

I said I make my own which meant I make timer for my own use and I am not selling them like you. Mine is a lot more expensive to make and sell because I used parts although I don't have to pay for they are expensive if I have to buy them.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Dave, Here is a picture of my double foot switch. One uses either side to either set the timer off, or hold your foot on the focus side and the enlarger light goes on.

As for 1/6 and 1/12 stops, I've never understood that. As we started exposing in f/stops way before f/stop timers were made, we did it manually. First you halve the time, then you quarter it, then one eighth, then one sixteenth. It is rare for one sixteenth, but with short exposure times when enlarging colour, it was a handy tool to have.

As for having an agent in Australia, could be interesting as we suffer in this country from what is called the Australia Tax. Meaning once something, from wherever in the world it comes from, has direct selling stopped and an agent/distributor for Australia, the price goes through the roof.

To put things into perspective, I purchase (or did) product from the USA via amazon.com. Recently Amazon completely stopped any Australian from purchasing anything, other than through the newish Amazon.com.au site. What I had been purchasing for around $65.00 USD plus delivery, which was around $12-14 USD or $105AUD, is now $225 AUD in this country, which is, at todays rate, $167 USD. This sounds rather alarming, but it is what more than sometimes happens in this country.

This is the exact product. Loc Line. For what it is worth, our GST is 10%, so it is not that.

https://www.google.com/search?q=loc...4KHVxSBwsQ9QEwB3oECAYQCg#imgrc=hBkn1NqZqJXQwM:

You have a niche product in a very niche area, if your supply chain makes your product over priced to hell, it could be interesting for you.

In April 1985 I purchased in Germany, a Nikon F3 body for $650 AUD, the same camera body in Australia at the time, was $2,376; utterly ridiculous price difference.

Mick.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi,
I’ve previously posted on here about other electronic photographic equipment we produce at DLG Electronics.
We have now started work on an enlarging meter-timer device and would appreciate any comments or suggestions while the design as at a concept stage.
It can be found here on our website:
http://www.dlgelectronics.com/enlarging_meter_timer.html
There is a pdf download available (4 pages) with an outline of our concept.
I’d be interested in any views on functions that should be provided or which are considered of little value, as well as general useability comments.
Also of course - would you buy it? Is there a market for this? The development costs for this will be significant, including regulatory compliance for all the major markets, so I’d like to have some confidence in selling a reasonable quantity before sinking too much capital into it.
Thanks,
Dave

I agree with arty.It needs to work in f/stops as fine as 1/12 stop and as coarse as 1/3 stop; it should also support test-strip making and burning.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi,
I’ve previously posted on here about other electronic photographic equipment we produce at DLG Electronics.
We have now started work on an enlarging meter-timer device and would appreciate any comments or suggestions while the design as at a concept stage.
It can be found here on our website:
http://www.dlgelectronics.com/enlarging_meter_timer.html
There is a pdf download available (4 pages) with an outline of our concept.
I’d be interested in any views on functions that should be provided or which are considered of little value, as well as general useability comments.
Also of course - would you buy it? Is there a market for this? The development costs for this will be significant, including regulatory compliance for all the major markets, so I’d like to have some confidence in selling a reasonable quantity before sinking too much capital into it.
Thanks,
Dave

it also needs an adjustable start-up delay to give the timer a chance to catch up with the lamp ramp up. No, I would not buy one because, I have the RHDesign timer2 with q custom chip and it works perfectly. but. if you can match their features and compete with the price you'll have a winner in a very limited market, of course.

 

[abruzzi]

Foot pedals could be accommodated with a simple 1/4” TS jack for single pedals or TRS for dual. Musical keyboard pedals are available from about $15 and up and would save the manufacture cost, and would allow users to buy the pedal they prefer.

The only trick is some pedal are default open and some are default closed (in other words some connect the two wires when depressed, and some are connected, but break the connection when depressed.). Some keyboards work around this by reading the circuit on power-on, and take that to be the default state.

Dead Link Removed

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I would buy one if it were simple. What I would look for in a timer today would be a meter to set the timer to a predetermined value, preferably for both highlights and shadows, and I would like multiple auto switching programmable channels, one for highlight exposure, one for shadow exposure and several for burning. Pretty simple really.

Footswitch of course too.

One nice thing too would be to turn off the audio if it has it. Can't stand beeping in the darkroom. Messes with my righteous tunage....

I don't personally care about f-stop timing. I used to know Gene Nocon who invented it, and I thought it was too complicated. It is all just simple math in the end.

The timers I use right now are a Gralab 900 and a Kearsarge 402. The Kearsarge is perfect, except it doesn't have a meter. The Gralab is great with 9 channels, but it is way too complicated to just program a single time, much less three. Pushing buttons all day is a bore.

Sometimes engineers overcomplicate the living crap out of stuff. Avoid that.

Not sure if that helps you....

 

[MattKing]

Your concept includes one feature that I know that I would never use, and would prefer that you omit - a room light switch.
My room lights are controlled from a switch that is placed in a distinctly different location from where I control my enlarger, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I do not want it to be easy to accidentally turn the room lights on when I am using a timer.
One further comment about the plugs on the top or bottom.
I would suggest the sides instead.
If one uses the timer on a flat surface (like I do) rather than a wall, it isn't very convenient if the cords come out the bottom toward you.
One alternative to deal with the concerns about material falling into the plugs would be plug-in child-safe covers for them - well known to most parents of young children.

 

[Dave Gooding]

p.s. I don't see why there should be any limit to the number of channels. Made sense when designing a unit with limited memory but data like this doesn't consume much space at all and there's no reason to limit your system to 256 bytes like the old days.

At 1 byte per programme step you can do quite a lot with very little (by modern standards memory). One byte would allow burns/dodges to be stored in increments of 1/16 stop up to 8 stops worth (i.e. 128 sixteenths) with a sign bit to differentiate between dodges and burns.

View attachment 204947 Hi Dave,
Auto-scan reflected light densitometers exist, and they can be frustrating. For example, the rubber drive rollers that feed the test strip into the reader can harden over time and lead to skewed feeding, which makes the readings fail. Don't ask me how I know haaaaa.

Instead, keep it a simple. Make a probe about the size and action of a wooden clothespin. The jaw opens and has a small target circle at the bottom that helps show the area you are reading while the top includes light source and sensor. When you press it down, take a reading and display density/store reading.

The user would print a step wedge, and read them in step by step.

Neat idea. I'll make get some test hardware put together to prove the concept. To keep the price of the main unit down for those that don't need this it this could be sold seperately as a plug-in accessory.

Dave, Here is a picture of my double foot switch. One uses either side to either set the timer off, or hold your foot on the focus side and the enlarger light goes on.

View attachment 205059



As for 1/6 and 1/12 stops, I've never understood that. As we started exposing in f/stops way before f/stop timers were made, we did it manually. First you halve the time, then you quarter it, then one eighth, then one sixteenth. It is rare for one sixteenth, but with short exposure times when enlarging colour, it was a handy tool to have.

As for having an agent in Australia, could be interesting as we suffer in this country from what is called the Australia Tax. Meaning once something, from wherever in the world it comes from, has direct selling stopped and an agent/distributor for Australia, the price goes through the roof.

To put things into perspective, I purchase (or did) product from the USA via amazon.com. Recently Amazon completely stopped any Australian from purchasing anything, other than through the newish Amazon.com.au site. What I had been purchasing for around $65.00 USD plus delivery, which was around $12-14 USD or $105AUD, is now $225 AUD in this country, which is, at todays rate, $167 USD. This sounds rather alarming, but it is what more than sometimes happens in this country.

This is the exact product. Loc Line. For what it is worth, our GST is 10%, so it is not that.

https://www.google.com/search?q=loc+line&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=hBkn1NqZqJXQwM%3A%2CP0Ln8xSro6NuuM%2C_&usg=__1SN46pfrZuZMZwdNLmL-BCW4a8o=&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwibvrn6-MjcAhUUMt4KHVxSBwsQ9QEwB3oECAYQCg#imgrc=hBkn1NqZqJXQwM:

You have a niche product in a very niche area, if your supply chain makes your product over priced to hell, it could be interesting for you.

In April 1985 I purchased in Germany, a Nikon F3 body for $650 AUD, the same camera body in Australia at the time, was $2,376; utterly ridiculous price difference.

Mick.

Thanks for the picture. I note that there's been another footswitch comment since. I'll aim to make the footswitch interface as generic as possible so anybody can plug in pretty much any switch they have.

Regarding Australian pricing I suspect the problem could be that a proper importer/distributor would be liable for declarations of conformity to your applicable regulations, thus has to cough up for any compliance testing/certification for what may be only a limited number of sales. Also of course the importer and distributer has got his own percentage to make - he needs to keep his wife and kids fed after all! From my point of view, I can discount the price for a bulk buyer, but probably not enough that he can cover all his costs without adding additional markup.

I agree with arty.It needs to work in f/stops as fine as 1/12 stop and as coarse as 1/3 stop; it should also support test-strip making and burning.

We could do this in f/stops in 1/12 (and multiples thereof 2/12 = 1/6, 3/12 = 1/4, 4/12 = 1/3, 6/12 = 1/2 etc) or in 1/16 (and multiples thereof). What are peoples preferences? 1/12 or 1/16? Of course, we could make it user-selectable but that again adds complexity in the use of the unit - either it needs another front-panel switch or you end up having to read the manual to find out where that option is in all the menus and key presses available, so I'd like to keep it simple here if possible.

it also needs an adjustable start-up delay to give the timer a chance to catch up with the lamp ramp up. No, I would not buy one because, I have the RHDesign timer2 with q custom chip and it works perfectly. but. if you can match their features and compete with the price you'll have a winner in a very limited market, of course.

I'm always suspicious about just how effective the start up delay is on the RH Designs unit. If you've got a ramp up you are trying to set a delay equivalent to the mid-point of the ramp-up, so to speak. With cold cathode lamps you've then got several minutes before you are at full brightness. This is partly why I was keen to provide light level compensation through a separate sensor - as this would automatically account for whatever start-up delay, ramp up etc. you might get as will as any fluctuations during measurement and exposure. Perhaps I would need to offer the ability to programme in a delay, as well as a light level compensation sensor as an optional accessory. Thought - the meter-timer could of course very easily measure the delay for you with a bit of software in it.

Foot pedals could be accommodated with a simple 1/4” TS jack for single pedals or TRS for dual. Musical keyboard pedals are available from about $15 and up and would save the manufacture cost, and would allow users to buy the pedal they prefer

The only trick is some pedal are default open and some are default closed (in other words some connect the two wires when depressed, and some are connected, but break the connection when depressed.). Some keyboards work around this by reading the circuit on power-on, and take that to be the default state.

Dead Link Removed

Noted - a "standard" interface, as generic as possible is a good idea. Question - I've considered illuminated pedals - is that worth doing? Our Temperature Compensating Developing Timer (https://www.dlgelectronics.com/compensatingtimer.html) provisions for this in the design, with a driver for an LED, although the supplied pedal is not illuminated.

I would buy one if it were simple. What I would look for in a timer today would be a meter to set the timer to a predetermined value, preferably for both highlights and shadows, and I would like multiple auto switching programmable channels, one for highlight exposure, one for shadow exposure and several for burning. Pretty simple really.

Footswitch of course too.

One nice thing too would be to turn off the audio if it has it. Can't stand beeping in the darkroom. Messes with my righteous tunage....

I don't personally care about f-stop timing. I used to know Gene Nocon who invented it, and I thought it was too complicated. It is all just simple math in the end.

The timers I use right now are a Gralab 900 and a Kearsarge 402. The Kearsarge is perfect, except it doesn't have a meter. The Gralab is great with 9 channels, but it is way too complicated to just program a single time, much less three. Pushing buttons all day is a bore.

Sometimes engineers overcomplicate the living crap out of stuff. Avoid that.

Not sure if that helps you....

Agreed regarding the footswitch and the audio.

It's a struggle to balance complexity with features. You'll see from the comments above that everybody has different things they want, so if we include every feature that everybody wants then of course it has a lot of features that most people won't use. I am a believer in making this simple to operate especially in the dark - after all you don't want to have to get the manual out and start leafing through it while you are also doing a burn at the same time! Likewise, controls should be easy to understand, easy to find and use in the dark (I like to avoid keypads especially membrane switch panels that don't provide any tactile feedback) and frequently-used options should not require multiple button presses to find the option in a complex menu structure. However I am hoping that with some careful design and consideration of the ergonomics of the use that I can include most of what people suggest without over-complicating the useage. I am also considering a simpler design, sharing much of the development cost, that could be made available at a lower price in parallel with the more complex and sophisticated unit.

Thanks again all. We'll get an updated and more detailed concept put together over the next couple of weeks. Please keep the suggestions coming in!

Dave

 

[Dave Gooding]

Your concept includes one feature that I know that I would never use, and would prefer that you omit - a room light switch.
My room lights are controlled from a switch that is placed in a distinctly different location from where I control my enlarger, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I do not want it to be easy to accidentally turn the room lights on when I am using a timer.
One further comment about the plugs on the top or bottom.
I would suggest the sides instead.
If one uses the timer on a flat surface (like I do) rather than a wall, it isn't very convenient if the cords come out the bottom toward you.
One alternative to deal with the concerns about material falling into the plugs would be plug-in child-safe covers for them - well known to most parents of young children.

If the general consensus is that the room light switch is not useful then I’ll remove it. I’ve only had one response in favour so far anyway.
Of course, the room light switch won’t do anything if you don’t plug a room light into it!
The connector placement needs some more thought if this is going to be bench top as well as wall mount. The advantage of top connectors on a wall mount is that if it is fixed through keyhole slots in the back, pushing the plugs in doesn’t risk pushing the unit off the wall, whereas pushing plugs into the bottom does.

 

[Ben 4]

The one feature I wish my StopClock Pro had was a mechanical rotary switch to shift the step size. I do get tired of all the button presses when entering multi-step program sequences and want different values for different program steps—say a quarter stop burn, followed by a third stop burn…. A nice switch I could grab and turn with my hand would simplify this.

The two best features of the StopClock are the test strip generator and the ability to enter multi-step program sequences. I'm indifferent to the f-stop timing thing — I've adapted, but could do without it. I usually think in percentages anyway.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Bill Burk]

I wouldn't force people to choose between half or third stops, each to their own and it's a firm choice. I don't do half stops and I don't tell others to do third stops...

Half stops relates to simple math of double and half times, and half clicks of some lens apertures, while third stops relates to the different film speeds and also for computation by density because 0.1 is a third stop.

I have occasionally thought it would be interesting to scale the intervals with the grades, to make each division be a noticeable change in tone. This might be a 12th stop at grade 4 while the same difference in tone can stand a third stop at grade 2. I work in third stops at grade 2 and it's a "coarse" tone change... Noticeable so I can be decisive and choose between one or the other. Any finer gradation and I have trouble picking the time I want to print. I don't intend to ask you to design a feature that compensates for grades and seeks to always give steps of the "least noticeable difference (e.g., 1 delta E in the color management jargon)" ... I just wanted to illustrate why finer gradations are needed by some people.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

What a strange thread. Does the OP have any experience using a meter/timer?

Anyway, my wish-list:

* Paper Calibration: I expect the unit to be pre-calibrated to the main papers available on the market. The unit then is calibrated once to the individual light source / enlarger, and all paper calibrations are fine.
* Furthermore, I´d like it to measure with the safe-light on.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

At 1 byte per programme step you can do quite a lot with very little (by modern standards memory). One byte would allow burns/dodges to be stored in increments of 1/16 stop up to 8 stops worth (i.e. 128 sixteenths) with a sign bit to differentiate between dodges and burns.



Neat idea. I'll make get some test hardware put together to prove the concept. To keep the price of the main unit down for those that don't need this it this could be sold seperately as a plug-in accessory.



Thanks for the picture. I note that there's been another footswitch comment since. I'll aim to make the footswitch interface as generic as possible so anybody can plug in pretty much any switch they have.

Regarding Australian pricing I suspect the problem could be that a proper importer/distributor would be liable for declarations of conformity to your applicable regulations, thus has to cough up for any compliance testing/certification for what may be only a limited number of sales. Also of course the importer and distributer has got his own percentage to make - he needs to keep his wife and kids fed after all! From my point of view, I can discount the price for a bulk buyer, but probably not enough that he can cover all his costs without adding additional markup.



We could do this in f/stops in 1/12 (and multiples thereof 2/12 = 1/6, 3/12 = 1/4, 4/12 = 1/3, 6/12 = 1/2 etc) or in 1/16 (and multiples thereof). What are peoples preferences? 1/12 or 1/16? Of course, we could make it user-selectable but that again adds complexity in the use of the unit - either it needs another front-panel switch or you end up having to read the manual to find out where that option is in all the menus and key presses available, so I'd like to keep it simple here if possible.



I'm always suspicious about just how effective the start up delay is on the RH Designs unit. If you've got a ramp up you are trying to set a delay equivalent to the mid-point of the ramp-up, so to speak. With cold cathode lamps you've then got several minutes before you are at full brightness. This is partly why I was keen to provide light level compensation through a separate sensor - as this would automatically account for whatever start-up delay, ramp up etc. you might get as will as any fluctuations during measurement and exposure. Perhaps I would need to offer the ability to programme in a delay, as well as a light level compensation sensor as an optional accessory. Thought - the meter-timer could of course very easily measure the delay for you with a bit of software in it.



Noted - a "standard" interface, as generic as possible is a good idea. Question - I've considered illuminated pedals - is that worth doing? Our Temperature Compensating Developing Timer (https://www.dlgelectronics.com/compensatingtimer.html) provisions for this in the design, with a driver for an LED, although the supplied pedal is not illuminated.



Agreed regarding the footswitch and the audio.

It's a struggle to balance complexity with features. You'll see from the comments above that everybody has different things they want, so if we include every feature that everybody wants then of course it has a lot of features that most people won't use. I am a believer in making this simple to operate especially in the dark - after all you don't want to have to get the manual out and start leafing through it while you are also doing a burn at the same time! Likewise, controls should be easy to understand, easy to find and use in the dark (I like to avoid keypads especially membrane switch panels that don't provide any tactile feedback) and frequently-used options should not require multiple button presses to find the option in a complex menu structure. However I am hoping that with some careful design and consideration of the ergonomics of the use that I can include most of what people suggest without over-complicating the useage. I am also considering a simpler design, sharing much of the development cost, that could be made available at a lower price in parallel with the more complex and sophisticated unit.

Thanks again all. We'll get an updated and more detailed concept put together over the next couple of weeks. Please keep the suggestions coming in!

Dave

Strongly vote for 1/12 stop increments; as an experienced printer, I know that a 1/12 stop is as minute as the eye can detect in highlights and roughly equivalent to dry-down;this makes it simpler than 1/16th.

 

[MattKing]

I use the f/stop printing table in Ralph's "Way Beyond Monochrome" book very frequently.
It is limited to 1/6 of a stop differences, but if you use it a lot, you end up interpolating between the results.

 

[Chan Tran]

Strongly vote for 1/12 stop increments; as an experienced printer, I know that a 1/12 stop is as minute as the eye can detect in highlights and roughly equivalent to dry-down;this makes it simpler than 1/16th.

1/12 of a stop is easy enough to implement.

 

[Dave Gooding]

Apologies for the long absence and slow progression on this project but we’ve had to work on some one-off commissions for clients.

You may be interested to see the latest concept which is now being developed:
https://www.dlgelectronics.com/enlarging_meter_timer.html
This has grown significantly in complexity and sophistication to address the majority of comments made here.
We have therefore also progressed with a simpler, more basic unit, designed for robustness under hard usage in professional darkrooms and educational establishments. This design has progressed to a fully-functional prototype and is shortly to commence regulatory compliance testing.
https://www.dlgelectronics.com/enlarger_timer.html

 

[MattKing]

Looks really good Dave - Good luck!

 

[larfe]

Looking totally awesome, let me know if I can help with testing the unit keeping in mind that I would not be interested in the densitometer etc... functions

 

[ic-racer]

One feature missing from every enlarging timer I have used in the last 30 years is a pedal that 'manually' starts and stops the timer. That is, when the pedal is depressed, the lamp is on and the timer runs with an audible one-per-second tone. The timer display increments as long as the pedal is down. When the pedal is released, the timer stops, the lamp turns off and the one-per-second tones stop. The display shows the exposure time.
There would of course be a second pedal that would run the 'programmed' time after a single press.

 

[esearing]

I like your paper calibration method and sequence programming. Does it have a visual reference for different measurements along a zone scale or value scale that allows user to adjust time/grade?

I have the RH analyzer for the Ilford multigrade 500 head and find the combination of timer/analyzer + VC head simplifies some decisions, but is a bit difficult for additional burn times at different grades using a "difference" mode. Grade level paper+developer calibration is labor intensive.

 

[Dave Gooding]

A somewhat belated update here.

Unfortunately we put the enlarger analyser/ timer concept on hold as it evolved into something too similar to the RH Analyser - we don’t see a big enough market to go head-to-head against a similar product, and we were in danger of infringing their patent as well. We continue to look at other options and concepts to bring a modern, highly-featured Analyser to the market though and will update on this in the near future.

In the meantime we have launched an Enlarger Timer (not an Analyser), designed specifically for the heavy professional user, public and educational darkrooms. This is a very simple to use, rugged design yet with a many useful features.
https://www.dlgelectronics.com/enlarger_timer.html
A special USA version is also in production under the CatLABS brand which features US 3-pin outlet sockets and US mains cable:
https://www.catlabs.info/product/cet01

 

[Peter Schrager]

I have the best timer ever made..it's called an electric metronome and a foot switch....works every time
I'm done with timers...too overpriced for what? I would think in this day and age someone could remake the zone VI timer....jus the fact that it counts upward makes the most sense to me. I just use it for developing film or prints without the probe (don't need that either to make great repeatable prints)
As a disclaimer my post is not meant to prevent anyone from buying the timer just be aware that you can have great results for lots less!
Best, Peter

 

[Hilo]

I have the best timer ever made..it's called an electric metronome and a foot switch....works every time
I'm done with timers...too overpriced for what? I would think in this day and age someone could remake the zone VI timer....jus the fact that it counts upward makes the most sense to me. I just use it for developing film or prints without the probe (don't need that either to make great repeatable prints)
As a disclaimer my post is not meant to prevent anyone from buying the timer just be aware that you can have great results for lots less!
Best, Peter

I think any company willing to invest into producing analog equipment should be saluted ! After all they're helping to keep analog photography alive. To me this is a reasonably priced timer.

 

[pentaxuser]

It doesn't matter now as Dave Gooding, for the reasons given, has put his timer on hold but it strikes "dismal Jimmy" here that the market for high end and even reasonably expensive timers is evaporating. Most newcomers here on Photrio and I suspect this is true of the rest of the newcomer market are newcomers to film and not film and darkroom printing. They go the hybrid route. I fear that darkroom printing is dying fast.

pentaxuser

 

[Hilo]

What I see in Paris and Amsterdam (just happen to be there often) is the opposite. Students of photography are buying really good enlargers (Leitz, Beseler, etc) and all the stuff that comes with it.

And in Tokyo:

https://petapixel.com/2019/06/10/fujifilm-bw-film-is-back-neopan-100-acros-ii-unveiled/