Email Campaign to save Kodak HIE-135

[Chazzy]

Perhaps this is worth a try....A similar action has worked with the 220 format production of Tri-X and the 8mm order of Wittner. Kodak wanted a minimum order of 50000 $ to make this batch of 220 Tri-X and the 8mm Film.

I keep seeing these tantalizing references to Kodak making a special run of Tri-X 400 in 220. Can anyone tell me whether the film has been made and how it is being made available? Jana?

 

[Schafphoto]

Here is my letter, it's worth a try, sent 12-13-2007.

To Whom it may concern,
Kodak Corporate
12-12-2007
Re: Infrared HIE Discontinuance

I have been a professional photographer for 20+ years and have used Kodak film and papers for the majority of my work. In 1987 I began using Kodak HIE 35mm infrared film for my fine-art subjects. It is now my primary film for all my personal work. Over the past ten years I have also used HIE for about a dozen commercial and advertising campaigns that have called for infrared film, Including 5 days for the city of Culver City, California, A poster for General Motors Saturn Cars, 4 days for the City of Monterey Park, California, and an entire collateral campaign for the Bank of A. Levy in Ventura, California. I consume between 60 and 80 rolls of HIE every year.

HIE is a unique and wonderful product that spurred legions of artists who specialized in the "Kodak Infrared Look", and many like me, have remained steadfast users for decades. Now that the edges of my film are revealed in my photos, the word KODAK is shown on every print I make. I often exhibit my infrared images in galleries, and for such an "obscure" film it is amazing how many people recognize and comment with, "That must be infrared...." It has become an American photographic phenomenon, and there is a European contingent of loyalists as well, despite the real difficulty involved in getting the film overseas.

Though many scientific and government uses of the film have been converted to digital, the film still retains a devoted following of art and wedding shooters. These are the same amateurs and professionals that have supported the Kodak film division with their color negative and transparency purchases. These are the same film enthusiasts that buy yellow bottles of developer, stop bath, fix, selenium toner, etc. I would argue that with the recent resurgence of interest in large-format film photography, Kodak HSI, 4x5 infrared sheet film would be more viable now, then in 2002, when it was discontinued.

Most HIE devotees have seen the writing on the wall, and most have braced for the discontinuance of HIE with bulk purchases, knowing all to well that the day would come when, like Kodak Enlarging Paper, HIE would cease to exist. I see little promise of a change of direction from a corporation the size of Kodak. However, I write this letter in hopes that the HIE product line can be revived, even at a higher price or longer cycle between coating runs. Unlike the discontinuance of Kodak papers and slide films, the decision to discontinue HIE is not mitigable by photographers switching to competing film brands. In this instance there is no comparable replacement film from any supplier, anywhere, at any price.

While Kodak continues to discontinue analog products and services corroding brand loyalty, smaller companies like Harmon Technology appear to respond to their customer's appeals and revive product lines (SFX-200), reaping huge public relations and brand-loyalty dividends. Over the next 90 days every photo magazine in the world will be editorializing about the loss of such a venerable film as HIE, while on the other side of the spread, a glossy ad tries to sell Kodak film. I respectfully request that you maintain production of HIE, even if only as a publicity strategy.

With hope,

Stephen Schafer,
Schafphoto.com

 

[nighthawkjw]

The email campaign to save Kodak HIE-135 infrared film began 15 November,2007, and I am happy to say it is continuing.

Thanks to Simon Marsden who shared a contact at Amateur Photographer Magazine in UK, an article appeared on their online version Wednesday, 12 December and they will publish an article covering the campaign in their printed magazine as well.
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/

Likewise, thanks to Jennifer Calais Smith in NYC, who shared a contact at PDN magazine, who interviewed me yesterday for an article that will appear soon in their online magazine, and I will post the date for that ASAP.
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/index.jsp

Now for the bad news, Kodak have issued a statement:
"While we very much appreciate the correspondence we've received from some photographers who use our infrared film and would like to be able to purchase it in 2008 and beyond, the fact is the decline in use of infrared film has been so substantial over the years that it is no longer practical for Kodak to continue to manufacture the film given the extremely low demand and volume, the age of the product formulations and the complexity of the processes involved. Infrared film will be available through the end of 2007."

This statement does not in any way dissuade me from continuing the campaign. I am sure that their intentions are to try to get me to stop this campaign, but I feel more determined than ever to cause a positive outcome for the future of HIE infrared film. Whether it is that Kodak reconsider and continue making it, or if they choose to hand the emulsion formula to one of the other manufacturers, either would be good - my preference being that Kodak think in terms of finding a way to manufacture the film and market it in a profitable way.

So, my message to you photographers impacted by this issue, is to keep positive. I expect further exposure, bringing more impact to the campaign. Any and all of you who have lists of fellow photographers to send the message to, do so now and generate more emails.

Also, let us consider this a banner for all film photographers for the fight to keep the films we have and want in the future. Film photography never need be in jeopardy if we who use film make it an important part of the art form of photography. If Picasso had been told by the manufacturer of his favorite blue paint (the BLUE PERIOD paint!) that they were not going to make it anymore, what would he have done? Find your inner Picasso and stand up for the film you use. Contact the manufacturers now and express your gratitude for it. People make decisions regarding these choices and people can be influenced, which is the heart of my campaign.


Sincerely,
James C. Williams

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Here's a thought -

CC the eqivalent people at Ilford with every request you send to Kodak to revive HIE. That will do two things: A, let Kodak know that they do have a customer base for the product, and B, help Ilford gauge the size of the market for such a product, and possibly encourage them to produce a similar product themselves, should Kodak fail to step up to the plate and revive the product.

 

[msuchan]

I have followed this thread with interest since I shot my first two and probably last rolls of HIE this past September and was hoping to really get into it this coming spring. I would like to see Kodak produce more but am not getting my hopes up. The CEO of Kodak has repeatedly stated that he wants to take the company into a digital direction. I haven't seen any sign of him changing his mind. In my opinion Kodak could have and probably should have, done a better job of promoting film as well as their other products. If the email campaign falls on deaf ears at Kodak I would love it if another company with a passion for film, such as Ilford, would make a film like HIE and then share their love of film with the millions of people taking photographs every day. I know that in my small little southern town that there are people who would love to be able to work in a darkroom to make their own prints since whenever I am out taking pictures and mention I do all the work in a bathroom darkroom someone tells me they would love to do the very same thing. We all need to share that passion with others if we want our favorite films to stick around.

 

[pentaxuser]

The email campaign to save Kodak HIE-135 infrared film began 15 November,2007, and I am happy to say it is continuing.


This statement does not in any way dissuade me from continuing the campaign. I am sure that their intentions are to try to get me to stop this campaign, but I feel more determined than ever to cause a positive outcome for the future of HIE infrared film.
James C. Williams

I think that if anything Kodak's intention might be to wish you so well in your campaign that it will get to the point where the demand ( capable of authentication by Kodak) for HIE reaches the magical figure that makes it worth retaining.

I suspect the dispiriting part from your campaign aspect is the amount the magical figure exceeds the current use. If the two are so far apart that the demand has to rise by such amount as to be scarcely creditable in terms of turnaround then it might take superb letters like that of the pro from all of us, even if we can't substantiate our case and most of us can't, to have any hope of success.

At worst you may learn a lot about campaigning and what works with companies which will stand us in good stead next time.

I can only admire your determination

pentaxuser

 

[Photo Engineer]

After hearing more from other sources, here is what I think is happening.

The HIE emulsion, due to low demand for all of its product life, is an older emulsion. It uses old equipment that is probably wearing out. In addition, the modern laser scanner used for QC will not work with IR film. They have to use other methods to look for coating defects and that is either labor intensive or rather old and wearing out as well. IDK for sure as I never worked on any IR product although I was a big user in the military.

Therefore, Kodak had not upgraded the product to work on current machinery and it is being produced in low volume on pilot or research equipment that they can no longer use. The demand has dropped below a level that can be sustained even on research or pilot scale. In addition, this film will not keep well, nor will the sensitized emulsion. The sensitzing dye is extremely expensive and does not keep well either.

So, I doubt if this campaign is going to work, but you have my applause for this effort and I really hope it brings the EK management to its senses in regards to overall customer relations at least.

PE

 

[Andy K]

PE, as you seem to have the ear of some still on the 'inside' at Kodak, perhaps it is possible that relevant eyes could be directed to APUG and this thread..?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Andy;

Done that long ago. In fact, the thread on Ultra Endura being discontinued (which was reported incorrectly by an APUG member here) was a matter for great concern in the Professional Products Division I'm told. So, you can rest assured (whatever that exactly means in this context) that Kodak lurks here.

PE

 

[Kino]

I just don't understand why Kodak, or just about any modern large manufacturer, cannot revamp their strategies, spin off the more marginal lines of goods into boutique production areas and continue.

That or simply SELL the technology to someone who would...

 

[Tim Gray]

I love HIE. I really wanted to buy another brick this month, but lowly grad student wages couldn't cover two bricks in two months. Oh, to graduate soon and get a real job. Hopefully I'll still be able to score a brick or two of HIE when I'm done...

 

[gr82bart]

I just don't understand why Kodak, or just about any modern large manufacturer, cannot revamp their strategies, spin off the more marginal lines of goods into boutique production areas and continue.

That or simply SELL the technology to someone who would...

The are many, many factors. Basically, any company would have to evaluate each decision that brings the best return.

SELL: It boils down to the cost of capital and then the total cost of the product lifecycle, plus the buying cost of the product for the buyer. Additionally, I would think there are less than a handful of companies or investors that 1. might even have the equipment that could handle the product 2. if they did, might consider buying it for the right price to be profitable and sustainable as a revenue stream 3. have the money to see the execution of production through to to the end.

CHANGE: Where is the revenue best re-invested that brings the greatest value to Kodak as a whole? It appears that Kodak is telling the world, that based on their analysis, there is no business case to invest any further into HIE.

Now, I have toyed with a far fetched idea with some of my colleagues, and the consensus is that if - HUGE IF - the question was put to a vote of the shareholders - ask the shareholders if it's OK for Kodak to produce certain products knowing in advance that by doing so, it would put the shareholder investments in certain risk, then Kodak could do it. That is Kodak will have the green light to change their existing strategy.

Now many here will say: But Art, many company decisions have led to a company's demise or a severe cut in revenue. Yes, that's true, but whether you believe it or not, most, I repeat most, of those decisions can be argued were made on a good faith analysis that the decision was good for the company / shareholders at the time of the decision. Realize that advance strategies are also developed and vetted by several people and analysts (sometimes hundreds) prior to the strategy being implemented. Here's the thing, these advance strategies have to be kept confidential for a public company to meet SEC / country rules. So, I am assuming Kodak made an exhaustive "Film Strategy" and the analysis came back unfavourable for certain products. HIE being one of them.

So back to my far fetched idea.

In addition to an e-mail / letter campaign, which I agree is noble, a question put to the shareholders as a vote by another shareholder, assuming all conditions to do this can be and are met (the shareholder usually needs a minimum number of shares), will certainly gain executive level visibility, at the very worst. Perhaps equally noble and definitely futile. I dunno.

Hmmm ... now to find a Kodak shareholder (or group) with enough shares willing to go through with this ....

Regards, Art.

 

[gr82bart]

The other question to ask is of the HIE consumers. How much are you willing to pay to keep HIE alive, assuming Kodak or another manufacturer is willing to continue its manufacture and distribution at cost or minimal net profit? $30, $50 per roll, more? I purposely didn't put this question up as a poll as, I feel I know the answer already. I could be wrong.

Regards, Art.

 

[Confusion Circle]

First EIR, now HIE. I cry myself to sleep every night.

E-mail sent.

"Dear Sirs/Madams:

Nonononono~! Please say that Kodak is not discontinuing the B&W HIE
35mm film! This will be a major tragedy akin to a large meteor
hitting the Earth! If this is indeed true, I hope Kodak sells the
formulation to one of those lesser companies to continue this
wonderful film. This is just one person's attempt to change the mind
of a multi-national corporation....but I hope it works...I just have
to try.

Jason Kazuta.

PS... If Kodak ever decides to discontinue Tri-X, there will be hell
to pay! ...or I'll just have to eat more chocolate cake to drown my
sorrows."

The reply from Kodak:
"Hello Jason,

Thank you for contacting Kodak Professional.

Unfortunately, it is true, we have preannounced the discontinuance of
the Professional High Speed Infrared HIE film. There are no plans to
sell the formula, but who knows what the future may bring. For the time
being, there is still HIE to be had, so stock up.

If you should have additional questions, please be sure to revisit our
site as we are continually adding information to enhance our support.

For immediate answers to commonly asked questions, please visit:
http://faqs.kodak.com/kodakprofessional

For product and technical information, service, support, and downloads:
http://www.kodak.com/go/professional

For information on ProPass Magazine:
http://www.kodak.com/go/propass


Regards,

Cat M.
Kodak Consumer and Professional Contact Center, USA
Digital & Film Imaging Systems"

 

[Photo Engineer]

The investiment necessary by another company to make Kodak IR films, even if they already had an operational photo plant and the formula might be extremely high! Just consider that a minimum order for the sensitizing dye might be between $20,000 and $40,000 US for 1 kg. If the dye kept for only 1 year, that is a huge investment for something that spoils.

It is like buying a whole steer, already butchered and packaged, but having no room in your freezer or refrigerator for all of it. What do you do?

I've said before that Kodak production of some niche products have fallen below even the smallest making and coating station in Research. This is not exact but gives you an idea. The sales are truly tiny. Will Chevrolet keep a line open to make one S-10 a month? One Vega? I don't think so even if the plant is running full bore making other products.

PE

 

[ITD]

I'm not sure I fully understand this situation. HIE was surely never a mass market consumer film, so what section of the market used to buy it that is not anymore?

 

[Photo Engineer]

All digital cameras have IR capability with either a simple modification or with filtration. The pictures can be quite spectacular (for digital). All of the users of digital IR are no longer buying IR films. This has actually been a large portion of the market which has vanished.

PE

 

[Andy K]

I have yet to see a digital IR 'photo' that looks anything like HIE.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have yet to see a digital IR 'photo' that looks anything like HIE.

I didn't say it did. In fact, the color version is impossible to match with EIR for a number of reasons, so in fact, I agree wity you.

PE

 

[Mackinaw]

I'm not sure I fully understand this situation. HIE was surely never a mass market consumer film, so what section of the market used to buy it that is not anymore?

Just a guess on my part, but I think that 35mm HIE was the "leftovers" from the master roll designed for other uses. I do know that there used to be a big market for B&W infrared film in larger formats. I'm in Natural Resource management and our standard field photos (9" X 9") were taken with special aerial roll-film cameras using Kodak B&W infrared film that was 9.5" wide by 200' long. It would take hundreds of rolls to fly any large area and that's just for one agency. I'm sure that, world-wide, the market for B&W infrared film used to be considerable. Now, with satellite digital color-infrared images being readily available, and at a good price (though marginal quality), the market for large-format B&W infrared has probably fallen off the cliff. 35mm HIE users may be the unfortunate bystanders in this market change.

Jim B.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak HIE and EIR were indeed 'leftovers' from the film used for aerial photography to detect diseased plants and camoflage. As the military reduced consumption of these films, due to the use of digital, the market declined sharply. Kodak used to make 9" wide rolls and 5" wide rolls of both films in about 75 foot lengths for the aerial cameras used.

So Jim, what you say is true. If you lose (hypothetically) 75 % or so of the market due to an abrupt migration to digital and the remainder declines sharply over just a few years, what do you do?

PE

 

[patrickjames]

I think people would be better off spending the time that they are wasting on trying to get Kodak to make HIE again on finding other ways to express themselves other than relying on a film to do it for them. I have seen all of my favorite films and papers disappear in the last few years, but I still do what I do, as do many others. If film finally dies, I will find another way. Materials are simply a tool to use, and there are many tools.

Patrick

 

[Mackinaw]

So Jim, what you say is true. If you lose (hypothetically) 75 % or so of the market due to an abrupt migration to digital and the remainder declines sharply over just a few years, what do you do?

Probably just what Kodak is doing, punt.

Ironically, I was on a conference call last week where the #1 request from many of our field staff (all Foresters and Forest Technicians) was for a new set of 9" X 9" B&W infrared photos. The ones we currently have date back to 1998 and are woefully out-of-date. They miss having hard copies they can take in the field and, more importantly, the option of putting two photos together so they can see stereo. Unfortunately, the money just isn't there for us to contract for another B&W infrared flight, so we make do with satellite, digital CIR photography. This works, but, not without some pretty serious limitations.

Jim B.

 

[JanaM]

Hi,

did you see the posting from Robert Vonk concerning the situation of IR films in the BW section?

Quote: ".........Due to the fact Kodak has discontinued HIE our Fotohuis has organized all int. Partners, Rollei/Maco (Germany)- Foma Bohemia S.R.O. (Czech Republic) - Moersch Photochemie (Germany) etc. to introduce a new high sensitive IR film on ALL formats.
The risk for such a film project is high, it's difficult to make and more multi-language technicians are involved.
However two main EU manufacturers have this technology, so we will not ask Kodak for assistance."
And furthermore there is the statement from Mirko Boeddecker that they will look at the possibility to design a high speed infrared film based on the Agfa APX 400 emulsion.

I think it is probably better to support these initiatives of the smaller and more flexible european manufacturers.
Let Kodak concentrate on those products which they can do best: Higher volume films and papers with high, exceptional constant quality.
It would be great to see the improvements of TMY-2 also in TMX and TMZ.
And I would like to see the introduction of the Vision 3 technology in our foto films. Two more stops dynamic range and finer grain will be such an improvement, that film will be much more attractive for a lot of digital photographers.

Such improvements are much more important for stabilising the film market. That is the direction all greater film manufacturers have to go.

Best regards,
Jana

 

[pauliej]

When it's gone, it's gone - time to accept it and move on.

This email campaign reminds me of the stuff from time to time on the internet about "Not buying any gas on Wednesday", to bring the big nasty oil companies to their knees. It always has less than zero result (due to people wasting their time thinking it could possibly work).

Sorry to be a downer, or even the voice of reason on this one...

Paul