EIR hints?

Toffle · Aug 3, 2008

A friend of mine has come into a few rolls of EIR and other assorted treats. He has been so kind as to share one roll with me on the condition that I share whatever I learn through using it. (pretty good deal, I'd say)

I have an appropriate deep yellow filter, as recommended by a local pro, but I forgot to ask him about exposure settings for this film. Does anyone know if I can simply rate this film at box speed, or if there is a better way to meter. Can you shoot this film hand-held? (I'm assuming yes, but... well, hoping)

I'm looking for any tips whatsoever to help make this once-in-a-lifetime experience a runaway success.

Cheers,

tim_walls · Aug 3, 2008

You'll get a very different result with a yellow filter from a deep red or IR filter.

This is an example of EIR shot with a yellow filter:

This is with a red filter; IIRC this was a standard deep red and not a full-on IR filter, but I'm afraid my memory is rusty so I could be wrong:

IIRC in both cases I was using TTL metering set for ISO200, metering through the filter.

Toffle · Aug 3, 2008

Thanks Tim. I will try some shots with a red filter as well. I'm heading off to Chicago in the morning, and hope to make the most of this film there. (must remember to pack my changing bag)

accozzaglia · Aug 4, 2008

While I haven't shot any of my EIR reserve yet, I have a Hoya orange (G) filter on hand to accommodate for adequate filtering. A Nikon O56 filter, I seem to recall, is perhaps even more ideal, while the Schneider B+W Infracolor 099 is engineered for this express purpose.

I guess at this point in the cycle, though, it would be best to just use the G filter I already have. If the results from a shot roll suggests problems, then I might look to one of these other two options (and whether I'm willing to invest in a specialized filter which may not see a lot of use ever again, certain pan b/w applications excepted).

Stan160 · Aug 4, 2008

Hi Tom, I've got two EIR shots in the gallery. Both shot with medium yellow filter:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

There is no box speed on EIR. I set the meter on my Nikon FE to 200, metered with the filter on the lens, and bracketed one stop either way. The best exposure for each shot was either the 0 or -1 stop. This was around the middle of a cloudless sunny day in August in the UK (probably the only one last summer!).

Ian

2F/2F · Aug 4, 2008

I would try to find the official Kodak data sheet for the film. They are usually quite thorough.

colrehogan · Aug 4, 2008

tim_walls said:
You'll get a very different result with a yellow filter from a deep red or IR filter.

This is an example of EIR shot with a yellow filter:

This is with a red filter; IIRC this was a standard deep red and not a full-on IR filter, but I'm afraid my memory is rusty so I could be wrong:

IIRC in both cases I was using TTL metering set for ISO200, metering through the filter.

I think that the descriptions for these shots may have been reversed. Typically, my experience with this film and a yellow filter has been to see an image similar to the bottom one shown here.

I have typically used ISO 200 for this film as well.

tim_walls · Aug 4, 2008

colrehogan said:
I think that the descriptions for these shots may have been reversed. Typically, my experience with this film and a yellow filter has been to see an image similar to the bottom one shown here.

I have typically used ISO 200 for this film as well.

Pretty sure they're not, but the yellow filter I used wouldn't have been a very deep yellow, whereas the red was quite deep. My memory could easily be rusty though: solution - try both .

Jeff Canes · Aug 4, 2008

A yellow filter should change greens to pink or red when processed with either C41 or E6. For C41 I had my film process at http://www.aerialphotolab.com

I have 2 or 3 rolls on ice not sure where to shot them.

http://www.pbase.com/jjarboe1/image/47929789/original
http://www.pbase.com/jjarboe1/image/42310301

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

Try using a yellow or red filter and cross processing the film. This will give extraordinary results. Some items are the correct color but have an inverted tone scale while others have incorrect color but an oddly correct tone scale.

PE

accozzaglia · Aug 4, 2008

EIR filter reference: side-by-side examples

This site seems to be a good reference point for how certain filters yield different renderings of colour. Per this, though, using a red filter skews the prints to a golden-orange hue overall, with IR-sensitized areas being orange-red:

http://www.naturfotograf.com/irfilters.html

It probably wouldn't hurt to throw on a polarizer, as well, particularly if water or sky is a significant component of your composed shots.

accozzaglia · Aug 4, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Try using a yellow or red filter and cross processing the film. This will give extraordinary results. Some items are the correct color but have an inverted tone scale while others have incorrect color but an oddly correct tone scale.

PE

I'd be willing to try a cross-processing on one roll, though not exactly decided on what subject matter could benefit from these shifts. I haven't found any references online of people who've shot and posted cross-processed EIR, which would be helpful as a reference point. Otherwise, it feels a little like shooting in the dark and not knowing at all what to qualitatively expect.

On a related note, I want to use at least one roll, possibly more, on time-exposure night shooting, both under a full moon (such as at a national or provincial park), and in the company of artificial lighting nearby foliage (e.g., trees in a central business district), but don't know how bad reciprocity failure impacts what could come of it. I have looked at the EIR data sheet numbers on reciprocity failure, but admittedly that means quite little to me in practical terms. Did you or your colleagues conduct experiments involving night photography with EIR, even hand-held/monopod (which, interestingly, would have been shot at 1/8th second at an outdoor place I was shooting last night -- assuming of course one is using a 50mm f/1.4 lens and was shooting wide open, which EIR isn't optimized to do -- as I was shooting with KL200)? Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

There is a textbook on Special Effect photography that uses a cross processed EIR example for the cover of the book. I'll look it up later if I can.

PE

Jeff Canes · Aug 4, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Try using a yellow or red filter and cross processing the film. This will give extraordinary results. Some items are the correct color but have an inverted tone scale while others have incorrect color but an oddly correct tone scale.

PE

Sorry Im confused then you say to cross process EIR what process are you talking about? AR6, C41 or E6?

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

Jeff;

If EIR went through E6, then a cross process would be C41. If EIR went through E5 or E4, then the correct cross process would be C-22.

Cross processing is defined as processing a color film in the wrong "polarity" process, or neg in pos and pos in neg.

PE

Jeff Canes · Aug 4, 2008

I thought AR5 was the standard process for EIR, that why I asked, IMO using E6 could also be cross-process

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

AR5 is, AFAIK, the process for Aerial Ektachrome and included a prehardener. If so, then running EIR through either E6 or C41 would cause severe problems, probably up to melting off the emulsion. E6 instead of AR5 would not, technically, be a cross process, merely the wrong process. It would be capable of yielding a positive IR image as intended if the film were to be properly hardened.

The point is, that cross processing of an Infra red film yields a negation in tone and in color of an image already rendered false by nature of the IR imaging in the first place. Such pictures are quite striking.

PE

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

I am with Diane on that one. I believe the filters are reversed.

Here is my page with a bunch on it...

www.roberthall.com/missions.html

Or at least I think it is. Looks like my server is down for the moment.

accozzaglia · Aug 4, 2008

AR-5 or E-6 is OK

Photo Engineer said:
AR5 is, AFAIK, the process for Aerial Ektachrome and included a prehardener. If so, then running EIR through either E6 or C41 would cause severe problems, probably up to melting off the emulsion. E6 instead of AR5 would not, technically, be a cross process, merely the wrong process.

I'm looking at one of my EIR boxes here to confirm this. Either process AR-5 or E-6 can be used. Elsewhere, my understanding is that AR-5 chemistry on EIR yields lower contrast than E-6, while E-6 is far more so and can yield more exaggerated hues. Because only a couple of labs in North America (again, based on what I've read and explored) have AR-5 chemistry for the express purpose of processing Aerochrome, it's basically a lot more practical to have one's own EIR rolls developed at a far more common E-6 lab (which, unlike an AR-5 lab, probably doesn't require a minimum order). Ergo, cross-processing of EIR film would be C-41 chemistry.

Edited to add: that said, I do not know how well Aerochrome stock handles E-6 chemistry. My chancey guess, based on the 120 rolls being custom cut and sold (as discussed in the other thread), is that it probably can be processed in E-6 without anything adverse happening. Maybe someone who's buying some 120 rolls or 4x5 sheets from this guy could ask him what he uses for processing his Aerochrome.

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

Remember to change the ISO when shooting for cross processing.

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

AR5 is the military version and at one time included a pre hardening step. It has been eliminated, but this does not mean that all Aerial Ektachrome is E6 compatible, but all EIR is compatible with both.

There is a speed shift IIRC and contrast change, but with the false colors, it is hard to detect or even to prove.

PE

Robert Hall · Aug 4, 2008

Hey Ron,

Right. I have seen a couple rolls in the AR5 and it does have a slightly different look but that actually could have been the scans.

Rob

accozzaglia · Aug 4, 2008

Robert Hall said:
Remember to change the ISO when shooting for cross processing.

To a lower or higher ISO setting? For instance, if shooting ISO200 for E-6/AR-5, what would be good for C-41 cross-processing?

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2008

Try using 100.

PE

Toffle · Aug 5, 2008

Thank you all for the hints, tips and general encouragement to make the most of this opportunity. I'm on vacation in Chicago, and if conditions warrant it, I will be loading my one roll of EIR tomorrow. I've scouted the city a little, and I think I have a bit of an idea where I will be shooting. I'm no stranger to cross-processing, but as this may be my only opportunity to ever shoot this film, I think I will go by the textbook on this one. I do have a deep yellow (hoya-G) and a Cokin #3 Red that I can use.

Thanks again, and wish me luck. (the film itself is long out of date, and I have no assurances to its storage conditions... I'm hoping for "something" though my wilder aspirations would be for "something out of the ordinary".)

Cheers,

EIR hints?

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