Efke 25 and XTOL

[Tony-S]

Planning on some 4x5 US mountain west landscapes (Colorado and Wyoming) in the near future with some Efke 25 that expired in 2014. The plan is to rate at ISO 50 and process with XTOL. Just wondering if anyone has experience or suggestions about dilutions, temps and times to control the inherently high contrast of this film. Alternatively, I have Perceptol (usually reserved for Acros) and Rodinal if you can convince me they might be better.

 

[Donald Qualls]

So, you plan to shoot film that's six years past date a stop underexposed, rather than a stop over (as would be the usual rule of thumb)? Have you tested a sheet or two to check for age fog? Likely not a big deal at that age with ISO 25 film, but still, you can test, so why not?

Xtol stock (replenished) is my current standard developer. I just processed four rolls of .EDU Ultra (aka Fomapan) 400 since lunchtime. Lots of folks like to use Xtol diluted, too. I have no experience with Perceptol, but I've used a lot of Parodinal (homebrew Rodinal work-alike), and for ISO 25 film at EI 50, I'd dilute 1:50 and look up Push +1 time on the Massive dev chart -- but unless you'll be shooting in the very early or very late daylight, or expect a lot of heavy clouds, I'd really suggest shooting at box speed (after verifying the film doesn't need extra exposure due to age) and giving normal development.

I'd expect Xtol 1+2 or 1+3 to give better shadow retention than Rodinal or derivatives at any dilution, and little if any difference in sharpness.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Why are you planning on exposing it at EI 50? This film performs best at EI 12-16. Xtol 1+1 is lovely. Time for some testing, I'd say...

 

[Tony-S]

Hmm, that's interesting. My understanding is the consensus is to shoot these classic Efke films at 2x box speed for better highlight separation and that pulling is really not good for them. Box speed is recommended for low contrast lighting.

 

[David Lyga]

To be honest and forwarding my long experience, a film that is inherently slow might not need ANY more exposure after 'only' six years. Loss of sensitivity is HIGHLY inversely congruent with film speed. For example with T MAX 3200 Kodak keeps it in salt mines!!! On the other side of the equation, Kodak ImageLink microfilm should be good at room temperature storage for about 50 to 100 years without any problems. There, as on canned labels for food, expiration dates are highly debatable. I am still eating cans of beans which I bought back in 2010!!! They are perfectly fine.

That said, I do not know what the REAL speed of EFKE 25 is. You might determine that first by shooting with both shadow detail and sunlight in the scene, then make one careful development test in order to confirm your results, and go from there. - David Lyga

 

[David Lyga]

Hmm, that's interesting. My understanding is the consensus is to shoot these classic Efke films at 2x box speed for better highlight separation and that pulling is really not good for them. Box speed is recommended for low contrast lighting.

That is a perfectly valid approach. However, beware: The highlights will be delightfully separated with fabulous tonality, but the shadow areas will be diminished, for certain. You cannot have everything. But your choice of sheet film will make your choices that much easier because you get to develop according to the scene's tonal range, as opposed to having to average the development when using roll film. - David Lyga

 

[Tony-S]

Thanks David. I typically meter the shadows then close down two stops for the exposure.

 

[Maris]

Thanks David. I typically meter the shadows then open up two stops for the exposure.

Huh? If you are rating the film at EI 50 and follow that procedure you end up with the same exposure as rating the film at EI 12, metering the shadows, and using the numbers the meter indicates directly without modification. Or, another way of getting the same exposure is to rate the film at box speed, ISO 25, read an open shadow, stop down one stop and shoot. Which I think a fair majority of photographers would do. There are many paths to the right answer.

 

[Pioneer]

Efke 25 is tailor made for Rodinal. I wouldn't waste my time with anything else.

 

[Paul Howell]

I agree with Pioneer, when I shot EKFE 25 and 50 I used Rodinal, 1:100 shot at 25 an old fashion film matches well Rondinal, grain is small but tight, Perceptol (Microdol X) 1:30 would be my second choice. If you have good shadow detail and printable high lights contrast can be controlled with VC paper. If your EKFE was refigerated or frozen yu might get away with shooting at 50 or 25, otherwise I would test.

 

[Alan9940]

I have about 40 rolls of 35mm EFKE 25 in the freezer since purchase. My testing revealed an EI of 25 and I develop in Acurol-N. No problems with contrast even out here in the severe sun of the desert southwest.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've used a lot of EKKE Kb14, Pl14 (the old DIN name), and later Kb25 and Pl25 renamed with the ASA Tungsten speed. The Daylight speed is 50EI and over exposure kills the sharpness, I've processed it in replenished Xtol alongside Tmax 100 which I also shot at 50EI so for the same time around 9 minutes at 20ºC inversion agitation in a Jobo 2000 tank.

In my darkroom I still have 4 boxes of 10x8 Pl25 also a little 5x4 and a new box of Quarter plate. It's a lovely film but be aware the emulsion is quite soft so it needs care in processing.

Ian

 

[darkosaric]

I have used Efke for years while living in Zagreb. Right now I still have some. I remember that on official Efke site they stated that you should be careful not to:
- Overexpose - as this is a problem in contrast with other B&W films, where this is not a problem
- Stop bath - use water, not acid dilution
- Wiping film before drying is a no go, as the emulsion is very fragile when wet.

I use Rodinal with Efke films, KB25 goes with 1+100, KB 50 and KB 100 also Rodinal, but sometimes 1+100, sometimes 1+50 or 1+25.

Efke KB25, Rodinal 1+100:

 

[Alan Johnson]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38552878@N02/28520637600/in/photostream/lightbox/
Here is a review of KB-14 from when it first came out before production was taken over by Efke.
I still have a brick of Efke 25 left.

 

[Alan9940]

It's a lovely film but be aware the emulsion is quite soft so it needs care in processing.

True dat! I found a hardening fixer helps.

 

[Pentode]

I have been slowly working my way through a 100' roll of 35mm Efke 25-ORT over the past couple of years. It's about the same age as your sheet film.
I've been shooting it at box speed and I've gotten my best results from Rodinal 1+50. The results are pretty contrasty, but not completely bananas. 1+100 would probably tame that a little without sacrificing anything.

Perceptol is a nice developer, but you will lose a stop of speed (or thereabouts) so it may not be your best bet here. At least, that's my... er... perception of it. I only use Perceptol for pulling.

And, yes, water stop and hardening fixer are both recommended with this film. In the case of 25-ORT a pre soak is also recommended.

 

[takilmaboxer]

Having shot plenty of Efke 25 Back In The Day, I would say,
-Slow films have good keeping qualities, but you should still test some film with your chosen developer before heading out,
-I don't like Rodinal, XTOL sounds fine, but that's a personal choice.
-Contrast is entirely a function of development, and this film builds contrast very quickly. Be careful.
-Unlike modern films the scale is short, and the highlights can easily block.
-As a long time resident of the Rockies, I'd point out that the scenery often has high contrast. You may be forced to choose between highlight detail and shadow detail. That's why I went to TMax 100 when ASA 25 films disappeared. It has the fine grain but it also has huge latitude; it can capture anything Nature has to offer within its natural scale.
Good luck!! Post some shots afterward!

 

[Ian Grant]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38552878@N02/28520637600/in/photostream/lightbox/
Here is a review of KB-14 from when it first came out before production was taken over by Efke.
I still have a brick of Efke 25 left.

I suspect that's actually a review from when it was first distributed in the US, or a relaunch with anew distributor.

Here in the UK Luminos were the distributors of Adox films and cameras from around 1953 including Kb14 which was released in 1952, the article mentions Tri-X which wasn't re-introduced until November 1954 it had been available as sheet film 1939/40. At some point in the early 1960's Luminos closed in the UK and relocated to the US this was a bad time for the British photographic industry with many companies closing or shutting rats of the company. I think it's a 1960's article judging by the type-style etc.

There was similar article in the UK's Amateur Photographer magazine in 1978 when the EFKE Kb14 had a new distributor. I had tested it a couple of years earlier to see if the claims of LF quality from 35mm Kb14 were true. I used ID-11 and the quality was superb however the emulsion was so soft, I used a hardening stop bath, later I'd add some drops of formaldehyde to the developer just before use. Luckily in later years EFKE improved the hardening curing the worst of the problem.

Ian

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

To be honest and forwarding my long experience, a film that is inherently slow might not need ANY more exposure after 'only' six years. Loss of sensitivity is HIGHLY inversely congruent with film speed. For example with T MAX 3200 Kodak keeps it in salt mines!!! On the other side of the equation, Kodak ImageLink microfilm should be good at room temperature storage for about 50 to 100 years without any problems. There, as on canned labels for food, expiration dates are highly debatable. I am still eating cans of beans which I bought back in 2010!!! They are perfectly fine.

That said, I do not know what the REAL speed of EFKE 25 is. You might determine that first by shooting with both shadow detail and sunlight in the scene, then make one careful development test in order to confirm your results, and go from there. - David Lyga

I've used this film for 15 years... I still have about 25 sheets left. I don't know its real speed either, but for me its EI 12 under normal contrast situations.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Church of The Holy Mary by Andrew O'Neill, on Flickr

Efke 25 8x10 silver gelatin contact print. EI 16. Wratten #25 filter.

 

[JPD]

Efke 25 8x10 silver gelatin contact print. EI 16. Wratten #25 filter.

That's a nice photo. How did you compensate for the red filter? I use to give Efke 25 a half top more than the filter factor for orange filters, to compensate for the less red sensitivity.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That's a nice photo. How did you compensate for the red filter? I use to give Efke 25 a half top more than the filter factor for orange filters, to compensate for the less red sensitivity.

I'll check my notes when I get home. Its reciprocity characteristics are interesting, too.

 

[takilmaboxer]

One of the things I loved about the film was its weak red response - it was truly "orthopanchromatic". Never used it with a red filter, but often used a green one for clouds.

 

[David Lyga]

I've used this film for 15 years... I still have about 25 sheets left. I don't know its real speed either, but for me its EI 12 under normal contrast situations.

Well then, you KNOW its speed. Your purported ignorance has been nullified. - David Lyga

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That's a nice photo. How did you compensate for the red filter? I use to give Efke 25 a half top more than the filter factor for orange filters, to compensate for the less red sensitivity.

Here are my filter factors for Efke 25. I also included N development comps for them. The factors are to maintain a zone 3 density. Films respond differently. Please note that these have been field tested by yours truly. I've used them for years.

#47 6x give N+2/3 development
#58 4x N-1/3
#12 1.5x N+1/3
#15 1.5x N+1/2
#21 3x N+1/2
#25 4x N+2/3

Reciprocity... Development comp. is not necessary, as contrast remains the same for all curves.
1 sec none
2 sec none (you could give 1/6 stop but really not necessary)
4 sec give 1.2x (1/3rd stop)
10 sec give 3x more exposure
16 give 4x more
32 give 6x more
64 give 9x

When starting out with a new film, I using run these tests. When I learnt of its discontinuation, I bought a few boxes of 8x10. Now I only have one box left. Soon this data will be filed away, never to be seen again. A wonderful film!