Effective use of expired film.

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koraks

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Now, here are my favorite images from that roll of film:
Thanks; they illustrate very aptly what I pointed out earlier. The problem you're dealing with when working with film this far gone is very much at the toe of the curve, i.e. the shadows. They turn out flat - and on film as badly fogged as this, so do the highlights.

Part of the issue is also in the digital representations/scans, which have a black pointed that's lifted significantly above zero; let's have a look at e.g. the petunias with a black point zeroed out:
1760509187171.png

It now becomes more apparent how much of the center part of the image, i.e. the shadows, are compressed. If we were to salvage this, a steep correction curve in the shadow region would be required:
1760509242623.png

Things don't really get all that much better since a lot of differentiation int he center of the flowers is just lost (compare to the better exposed ones above).

You could do something similar for the other two images and find that they work the same. They all suffer from strongly compressed shadows.

If you look at the base of the film, the level of fog is probably something like 0.45logD (perhaps even a little more). Assuming it's developed to a gamma of around 0.65, this means there's 2-2.5 stops of fogging density going on. That's only part of the problem; another part is the sensitization (due to fogging) of unexposed/non-density-building silver grains which will form a cumulative exposure with the actual image exposure (cf. how flashing paper compresses highlights even if the flashing exposure itself doesn't generate visible density on white borders). It's this effect that destroys shadow tonality. So to fully compensate for the effect, you'd have to downrate the film by 2.5 stops or so plus an arbitrary amount to lift the toe of the curve beyond the effects of the unintended 'flashing' fog. You may need to downrate the film by 4 stops or more to get rid of the problems on the shadow-side of the curve. Your PlusX that was originally 125 is now around 8 ISO. Which of course isn't really the case, because this degree of overexposure will create problems with highlight compression, as you're pushing the image all the way up the curve and onto the shoulder. You end up realizing that the only thing the film does well anymore is the capture of very low-contrast scenes somewhere in the middle of the curve, so with generous overexposure, and requiring a strong contrast boost in post/printing, resulting in a very grainy image.

So, just because it has a lot of base fog, doesn't mean you can't get good images.
Yes, it does mean exactly that, at least if 'good' also implies 'technically good'. If 'good' means 'technically inferior images, but I'm still pleased with what I got', then yes, I agree. But this has more to do with the fun of shooting film, of doing things in a way you please and perhaps the anticipation involved in waiting for the images to come out. I understand I'm being a cpt. Buzzkill in pointing all this out, but I know from experience that the novelty of shooting film can wear off, and that many people start looking more closely at the results they get. They may then decide that the time and effort is still worth it, provided they have a fighting chance right from the start. My comments are aimed mostly at those people, or the ones who figure they may one day fall in that category.

Of course, anyone can and really should decide for themselves what they like to do. A friend of mine really enjoys shooting heavily expired (decades old) 120 film. Most of his photos are riddled with backing paper offset marks of various kinds, in addition to severe examples of the effects I explain above. I think the images are technically atrocious. He's happy with the experience. I have nothing against that (as long as I can go through the prints reasonably quickly and don't have to spend too much time with them).
 
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Homebrewmess

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I almost never get good results from expired film from the 80s or earlier. One exception I have heard but not tried myself is Verichrome Pan.

If you want to save money, I'd stick to slow B&W films from 2000 or later - or use fresh Kentmere/Fomapan. You're in Alberta, Flic Film sells rebranded Foma.

The reason I am a bit attached to this film is because it was essentially free. The seller threw it in with my enlarger without additional charge when I got it, so aside from chemical use the film is very cost effective for me at the moment you know?
 

loccdor

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Well, using film like this has some advantages for someone just learning. But it also puts a pretty low ceiling on the results you can achieve which may feel discouraging.

I had a look at inverting and contrast-adjusting a snippet of your comparison...

1760603514777.png


The film could be useful for images where you're purposely going for a degraded look. Think abandoned buildings, gritty scenes, images where you might want to invoke a feeling of decay, fear, or ephemerality.

But you may want to go into a project with this in mind, rather than trying to use it for general photography. Only use it where it's the "right tool for the job." Harmonize your subjects with the style of rendering. They're quick charcoal sketches, not grand renaissance oil paintings.
 
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Homebrewmess

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The film could be useful for images where you're purposely going for a degraded look. Think abandoned buildings, gritty scenes, images where you might want to invoke a feeling of decay, fear, or ephemerality.

I am considering using it for architecture on very sunny days, I like the idea of abandoned buildings idea. Given it's October I might be able to find some interesting pictures of a kinda dead looking forest. maybe it will be eerie?

worst case scenario I get to practice my composition and framing, best case scenario I achieve what you describe and end up with some evocative pictures. over all I think experimenting with this stuff will be fun
 

Bill Burk

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Expired film is atrocious for learners. Best for once you have already built a confidence in your ability and need to be taken down a notch.
 

Cholentpot

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Expired film is atrocious for learners. Best for once you have already built a confidence in your ability and need to be taken down a notch.

Expired film taught me how to develop film, color and b&w without spending myself into a hole. Messed up a roll? That's fine. No major loss...
 

Sirius Glass

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Welcome to Photrio!

Expired film is not your friend and the losses one experiences are not worth the cost savings. Only buy fresh film, checking the expiration date and comparing it with the film in the back of the shelve.
 

Agulliver

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I think it depends what you expect from the expired film.

If you accept that it's going to be somewhat unpredictable and possibly very fogged with reduced contrast, you can still possibly find uses for it. Would I have liked to learn with expired film? Certainly not exposure....but you can experiment with image composition. I suppose you can learn about film development though there comes a point when you need fresh film to ensure your development regimen is good.

There's also a difference between seeking out expired film and coming across a hundred feet of the stuff in a bulk loader.
 

Hassasin

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FP4 was discontinued in 1990, best case scenario 35 years young with unknown storage history. But also not crazy old to still be useful.

While nobody can question lots of fog in example given, as someone stated, if cost of chemicals is no worry, keep experimenting. Chances for consistent results are rather slim, but some "arty" results are still possible.

IMO, shooting this above 50 ISO is likely not a good idea. I'd keep same development time as per box speed though. And try it in Rodinal, rather inexpensive option, which is also a good all around developer anyways.
 

Cholentpot

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Welcome to Photrio!

Expired film is not your friend and the losses one experiences are not worth the cost savings. Only buy fresh film, checking the expiration date and comparing it with the film in the back of the shelve.

Yes I agree.

Anyone on this website who has expired film please send it to me and I will dispose of it free of charge.
 

npl

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HC-110 would be my developer of choice for expired film. It's relatively cheap and help a bit with the fog. Bonus point, short dev times.

There's a certain look to prints made with expired film that work for some subjects, I have a couple I like made with fp4 and hp5. As always, it's subjective and experimenting is fine.
 

alanrockwood

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No expert here, but look at it from this point of view. Expired film today is probably no worse than fresh film made in the 1930s and 1940s, and a lot of classic images were made with those old films.
 

Hassasin

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Well, using film like this has some advantages for someone just learning. But it also puts a pretty low ceiling on the results you can achieve which may feel discouraging.

I had a look at inverting and contrast-adjusting a snippet of your comparison...

View attachment 409549

The film could be useful for images where you're purposely going for a degraded look. Think abandoned buildings, gritty scenes, images where you might want to invoke a feeling of decay, fear, or ephemerality.

But you may want to go into a project with this in mind, rather than trying to use it for general photography. Only use it where it's the "right tool for the job." Harmonize your subjects with the style of rendering. They're quick charcoal sketches, not grand renaissance oil paintings.
Excellent points.
 
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Use a print developer like D72. Develop the film in a strong dilution ( like 1 to 5 for 5 minutes, or full strength, stand for 3 minutes ). Do not use Bag-Ready DEKTOL since it mixed dark I stopped trusting it. Use the results to make something, don't just print or scan as you would a regular negative. instead use it as a stepping off point, interpret it to create something different.
 

Dr. no

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That looks like a batch of FP4 I got “free” in a bulk loader. This is a lot of nice discussion on fogged film, which is all true and helpful, but this film has a tendency toward blotchiness, which is a different problem that BZTZ will not help. Use it for that blemished look and equipment testing…
 
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