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titrisol

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RIT experimented with these in the early-mid 90s
Mint was supposed to work, lavender and other as well.
The trick is to get pyrogallol-like compounds such as caffeic acid, menthol (mint), so I assume Rosemary, Thyme and other herbs should work as well.

I do not have a copy of Morrison and Boyd Organic Chemistry anymore, but there is a full chapter on these compounds
 
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Akki14

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Phyautotype

If you look in the alternative process section, someone here on APUG has made a physautotype using oil of lavender.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Looks really pretty, it's one of the alt processes I'm looking into trying in the near future.

If you click on the link in the above quote you'll see the results of the recent experimentation of Bruce Johnson of Melbourne, Australia (hats off to him for his relentless work). If I'm not mistaken, Bruce is probably the fourth or fifth person ever to make a physautotype, including Niepce himself. (I'm eager to hear from anyone who can disprove this, as I'd be pleased to speak with practicioners of this process).

I've witnessed the process but I've never actually made a phyautotype myself (so far!). I think that Bruce might be the one to pm for practical information. Jean-Louis Marignier, the researcher who re-discovered the process while writing the definitive text on Niepce, tends to be too busy to answer questions.

Hope this helps anyone who might want to play with this interesting process and, in the doing, touch a bit of history!

Best,

Christopher


. . . . .
 
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just finished developing Tri-X in Thyme...

after 40 minutes there's a faint, but printable image

the negative has a nice amber tone too

next on the list: Parsley, Sage, and Rosemary

I'm pretty confident that Sage & Rosemary will work, less sure of Parsley

Apparently the Rosmarinic acid is a "dimer" of caffeic acid
 

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Yes, Rosmarinic Acid is a dimer of Caffeic Acid. Interesting that they would both work, but they are both antioxidants. If parsley works, then parsnip leaves would probably also work, and might be stronger due to the higher level of oils in them.

You may want to get a book on Steroids and Terpenes. These compounds appear to fit into this type of class. If that is the case, Limonene might also work, but if you used lemon juice the ascorbic acid might mask the activity of the oil.

PE
 
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I'm wondering if the amber tone I have might be a dichroic fog...

I usually use a water stop with these experiments

I don't think I have any Farmer's Reducer....but I can try the citric acid/rapid fixer method
 

pauliej

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How about Mello Yello and/or Code Red sodas too? mmmmm... Just a thought.

Paul
 
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I just noticed...the amber tone is all over the film EXCEPT the portion of the film leader that had stuck out of the film canister into the light....so the fog only formed on the parts of the film that had always been in darkness

and I did find some Farmer's Reducer, so I'll test that later


FWIW I usually add some isopropyl alcohol when I'm mixing up these "organic" brews to help extract the goodies from the plants....apparently some things (like rosmarinic acid IIRC) are more soluble in alcohol than water
 

Kirk Keyes

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You may want to get a book on Steroids and Terpenes.

Hmmmm. Terpenes. I love them. I have a box containing old terpene standards in my freezer. Every so often I get it out and smell the distinctive scent of each different terpene.

The limonene would be nice if it works. You could extract the lemon zest for the limonene, and then use the lemon juice as a stop bath. 2 processing baths out of one fruit.
 
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well I did try to get some grape extract recently....but it was mixed in with other things I had already tested, so it wouldn't have been a good test for grapes


it's a good thing I didn't know all this freshman year in college while I was (1) still a chemistry major and (2) attending a university with many Social Urine Sources ( known to themselves as fraternities )
 

Gigabitfilm

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A lot of articles describes effects with substances on AgHal in internet, but the effects could sometimes based on old articles, where they dont mentioned exactly on what kind of carier (collodium, simple paper, gelatine) these tests were done.

Looking back exactly in the old standards of photochemistry literature like Hermann Wilhelm Vogel, the inventor of sensibilisation for photography, he dscribes a lot of substances. See "Handbuch der Photographie, I. Theil Photochemie und Beschreibung der photochemischen Chemikalien, Berlin 1890". He citates Carey Lea, who was testing on Collodium or simple paper (not our modern gelatine paper!!!) a lot of these substances with different results depending if paper or collodium, and Vogel mentioned, that in AgHal-gelatine these substances will have very little or no effect. A lot of articles later describes effects in internet are based on old articles, but they dont mentioned exactly on what kind of carier (collodium, simple paper, gelatine) these tests were done. All these substances, you read in this book, will have the old chemistry names, to retranslate in modern chemistry language you need a lot of time. An example from the glucosids: "Manna will give in carbonat alkali a strong and effectful picture ... pictures will have the most redish tones of all proved substances." There is a chapter with aetheric oils like (now german words) Nelkenoel, Camillenoel, Pfefferminz-(peppermint)oel, and there is a chapter with substances from plants, leafs, wood and so on ... Citation: "The following substances will have weak or no effects: Lakmus, Karthamin, Rutin, Colchicin, Nux vomica, Curcuma, Coffein, Berberin."

For the experiment people: Salicylic-acid CAS 54-21-7 is a strong de-hardener for gelatine, you will get strong hardened films very soft in their gelatinestructure (once I tested), this could be interesting for old, too much hardened by time of storage aged bw-papers perhaps. Aspirin is a weak dehardener and available for everybody in your drugstore. And it helps against too much testing substances for yourself ... :tongue:
 

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Salicylic acid dissolved in alcohol, applied to skin will dissolve skin rather rapidly. It is used commercially in the US in a product called Compound W for removing warts.

There are a number of chemicals that de-harden film or even better increase swell without removing hardening. It is difficult to tell which is which without sophisticated experiments. One way is that by increasing swell, you can still process in warm solutions, but you cannot if you unharden film.

Also, you must remember that old hardeners such as chrome alum were easy to reverse, but formaldehyde was not. The newer hardeners are even less subject to dehardeners. In fact, dehardeners to some extent can be considererd compounds which decompose the gelatin.

Takamine solution is an enzyme which totally dehardens and decomposes gelatin. It is very dangerous to work with as it can literally take the hide off of an elephant.

Speaking of old chemical usage, Chlorophyll was one of the first chemicals used for sensitizing a silver halide emulsion to red (ish) light.

PE
 

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Sensitizing dyes are similar in structure to the dyes in the human eye. A group of C=C determines the color where 1 group is blue, 2 groups is green and 3 groups is red. This is a GROSS oversimplification.

The difference between the eye sensitizers and film sensitizers is that one is designed to adsorb to organic (eye) sensors and the other (emulsion) is designed to adsorb to silver halide grains. (adsorb is loosely used for the eye as it is a different type of process than adsorption).

The dye is placed in a solvent that can mix with water, and the dye is usually unable to dissolve in water, so when the dye (in solvent) is mixed with the emulsion, it heads directly for the grain surface where it can precipitate out and then transfer its energy to the emulsion.

PE
 
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Jordan

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Hmmmm. Terpenes. I love them. I have a box containing old terpene standards in my freezer. Every so often I get it out and smell the distinctive scent of each different terpene.

The limonene would be nice if it works. You could extract the lemon zest for the limonene, and then use the lemon juice as a stop bath. 2 processing baths out of one fruit.

Terpenes are fun, but I can't see what kind of useful redox reaction they could undergo that would enable them to serve as developing agents. The experiments would smell good, though.
 

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Terpenes are fun, but I can't see what kind of useful redox reaction they could undergo that would enable them to serve as developing agents. The experiments would smell good, though.

Jordan;

I've been thinking about that, and I have been wondering if I was right or wrong. I may have to hit my copy of "Steroids and Terpenes" and "Fieser and Fieser" to look at the reducing properties of some of these esoteric chemicals.

Turpentine, one of the materials that gives this class its name is too insoluable in water to use as a developer, but IIRC there were reducing agents in the leaves that were Terpenes.

As for steroids, I have seen some quite interesting phenolic type derivatives, along the line, that are like cholestanol and could be interesting reducing agents. Of course, getting a rotten gall bladder and isolating cholesterol and using it to make cholestanol is not my idea of fun.

But, anyhow the anthroquinones in leaves led me to the parent anthrohydroquinones which led me from leaves to turpentine. Trihydroxy phenols led me to cholestanol. Well, you see where my thinking went anyhow.

What do you think lies out there in this area? Perhaps I was way off base. Maybe the only practical suggestion here was to use parsnip leaves. :D

PE
 
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And those parsnip leaves shall be tested...you can be sure of it

I cuisinarted parsley today...and right now my fingers are green from the rosemary I'm preparing

re cholestanol: perhaps my Lipitor would make a decent stop for that, eh?
 

Gigabitfilm

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To be curious for new substances is helpful, I get interesting once in the thema coffee developer, when I read in internet the using for high resolution films and that they will get some fog. But coffee has more than 800? ingredients and - I am a green tea drinker. :wink: So I have only an eye on these things. An interest is for commercial available substances of qualified purity, which produce some fog and do not ruin speed like Thiurea. Since starting gelatine-AgHal research 1880 all interest was in mixed emulsion and not in monodisperse emulsion. With monodisperse high resolution emulsion you get a more scientific answer, when you test developing substances. The grain distribution of mix-emulsion will "smear" your result. But all old literature and the bibles of photochemistry are all based on these old tests.

This "smearing" will happen in all tests, when you work with normal films with a high grain size distribution, and you have a lot of difficulties to detect the real problems in photochemistry like speed, faults, equalness. Thanks my new film GTP, which is now on the market, I could enhance my chemistry, because the grain size distribution was more little than ever and the normal gamma for normal developers higher than ever. Thanks this I could detect mistakes of the past better and cancel them in the HDR chemistry. In my new datasheet I describe, that the old problem, to get absolutely faultless developed areas since 1880 (Richard J. Henry wrote a thick book on that - Controls in black and white photography, sec. ed. 1986), has to do -perhaps- with following:

In my eyes the spooled film - in a cartridge - and in a developer spool - will act like a kondensator in electrotechnics. The film can accumulat em-energy. In the moment the kondensator comes to an electrochemic bath (the developer is) several things in the moment of starting development will happen and - when the field is strong - disturb an equal quality. I do not mention the silverscum in dirty tubes, this is another, near equal problem of galvanochemistry. The simpelst in this thinking of mine is the short circuit via the perforation holes (cavityresonator?) up and down on the film.

When the "balance" of a developer is quite perfect (and you can use it, as an example, for correct halftone G=0.5 with Dmax for monodisperse 20°C 1+5 5 min and all mixemulsion like normal 100 ISO films with 400 ISO undiluted 12 min as with the HDR), in the moment of contact with film the final result is "programmed". In other words - normally you need not more to move the developertube, only developer fill in and wait. I test this from a theoretical point of view and for all standard motives it works good, for studio-photography (with their flashlights - em-impuls!!?) with white background it would better to move the tube in the first 30 seconds, then you can "smear" the white to a equal white. Testing full exposed films (only full white exposures) in full length you see -without moving- now some weak marks on the corners or sometimes weak clouds. In the beginning of a spiral the curvature is stronger (tension in gelatine) as at the end of the spiral - this will influence also the result. Spooling this developed film back in the spiral and when you have marked the areas, sometimes you can see something: When you see the spiral like a coordinate cross, in one area (lets say northpole) all these signs will get together a sign like you will have seen once in physics.

Once a scientific client from me has storaged his films in a refrigidair, on this stands an old microwave. Often he got flashes when he wants to open the refrigidaire. He got sometimes flashmarks in his films using in vacuum, I need together 5 hours telefon calls to detect this. Together with the normal known flashmarks I saw never described phenomena on these films. Thanks this solved problem I am open for new ideas for enhancing classic chemistry. Normally all professional users will make a prewatering for their b/w E6 or C41-films, perhaps in future this can be better. And it has to do with the holy grail of all secrets of emulsion making - the wetting substances. The first wetting substance in history of production was a natural product, it was in use until 1960. To look for some new "old" substances can be interesting. Old substances are more oecologically.
 
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Green Tea works fine as a developer -- and doesn't get the nasty smell coffee developer has


after I finish having fun developing film with ingredients from my friend's gardens, I want to try adding restrainers to see if I can reduce the fog
 
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