ECN2 developer starter!

Mogsby · Sep 19, 2017

I made up a second 500ml batch of ECN2 developer following the Kodak recipe and the film i just processed came out with colour shifts. I have seen some industry ECN2 kits that require a dev starter. The Kodak ECN2 processing module says nothing about a dev starter.
The first batch i made I had put old Fuji and Kodak Cine film through it (I expect the colours to be off on that sold stuff) before I put 2017 Vision3 through it, The fresh film result was good but not perfect. So I decided to make up this new batch in the hope of getting a really good result!. I got the opposite. I have read that developer starter is used to season the developer!, if i run some old EXR through the dev, would that season it?.
The only change I made in the workflow was to use a sulphuric acid stop bath rather than the B&W stop I had been using. Kodak say to use Sulphuric acid 7.0N. I don't have that!. But I do have Sulphuric acid 60% concenration. So to make 1lt of stop I added 15.5ml of acid to 12.5 ml of deionised water, I made that up to 50ml, then added it to 850ml of deionised water.
The other problem is that the negs are very thin! Could that be caused by the stop bath I made?.
Something in the box of tricks makes me sneeeze .

georgegrosu · Sep 20, 2017

The ECN-2 kits use the name of:
- KODAK ECN-2 Kit Color Developer Starter
- KODAK ECN-2 Kit Color Developer Replenisher
The Kodak specification uses the name of:
- Fresh Tank (developer)
- Fresh Replenisher (developer)
In connection with stop solution, Kodak says that for 1 liter of solution use 10 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid.
Depending on how mode is expressed your acid concentration (mass or volume), determine how much acid you needed.
If you do not have a color scale, it's hard to appreciate your image.

George

RPC · Sep 20, 2017

You must understand that there is developer and then there is replenisher. The starter is used to season the replenisher, not the developer. You see, replenisher should not be used as developer, but can be made into a working solution developer by adding starter to it, and probably some water as well. I have not used ECN-2 but this is the way it works for C-41 and color developers in general.

To summarize, starter is only used to make working solution developer out of replenisher. It is not added to the regular developer.

georgegrosu · Sep 20, 2017

I think you have to decide with what developer you want to work for ECN-2 process.
If you want developer from raw chemicals see - Process ECN-2 Developer.
If you want to work with the kit see - ECN-2 Colour developer Kit

George

Mogsby · Sep 20, 2017

georgegrosu said:
If you do not have a color scale, it's hard to appreciate your image.

I want to make developer from raw chemicals, fresh tank, not replenisher. I made fresh tank solution but when i saw the next heading...Fresh tank and seasoned, then i wondered. Ok, so the fresh tank solution I made is a ready to go solution and should do 100ft (20x36 exp rolls) of film, then I chuck it and make a new batch.
George, I attach some better images with Fuji colour card for you to look over. To my eyes the colours look a little shifted and for brand new film they should be spot on. OK, I can scan and PS the frames but my real aim is to get the best negs I can and then contact print them onto 2383 stock.

OK, first through the fresh solution was a strip i shot indoors using a couple of CFL lamps, (first two images).
Next strip through was a strip i shot outdoors with 85 filter and camera set to 320 iso.
Maybe you have the same colour card, if not, you know what colour Tomatoes are and maybe the Tin cans. I'll say nothing and wait to hear what you think.

Forget about the ealier image, that was shot on my phone, just to show I am actualy doing this and not wasting people's time and effort .

Mogsby · Sep 20, 2017

RPC said:
To summarize, starter is only used to make working solution developer out of replenisher. It is not added to the regular developer

I think I 'get it' now . Thanks for your comment, its appreciated.

georgegrosu · Sep 21, 2017

Mogsby, I appreciate the fact you went to a color scale.
I do not understand with my English what negative color you are using.
Is the negative color the same for all samples?
Do you get the negative color of the same piece of film?
Do you want to develop 100ft negative color in what ECN-2 developer candidate?
It's good to scan your negative on a medium performance scanner.
To see what a good negative look should look like LAD for KODAK Color Negative Film
https://www.kodak.com/Kodak/uploadedfiles/motion/US_plugins_acrobat_en_motion_support_h61_h61a.pdf
The images started to look decent.
I recommend you to give a negative color who 50 D (daylight).
She has beautiful colors.
Respect the color temperature at shooting and the results will be better.
I having no negatives in my hand, I can guess that the odd colors come from an over development of the negative.
Negative over development may come from too much agitation, higher temperature or higher time.
My advice is to have a vigorous agitation at first (10-15 seconds) and then moderate.
Time is good not to reduce it to less than 3 minutes.
So the time for pas from developor in the stop is not too important.
If you still use a developer from raw chemical, use only a fresh developer.

George

AgX · Sep 21, 2017

RPC said:
You must understand that there is developer and then there is replenisher. The starter is used to season the replenisher, not the developer. You see, replenisher should not be used as developer, but can be made into a working solution developer by adding starter to it, and probably some water as well. I have not used ECN-2 but this is the way it works for C-41 and color developers in general.

To summarize, starter is only used to make working solution developer out of replenisher. It is not added to the regular developer.

But in general some processing kits do not contain developer, but only replenisher and starter. As the typical consumable would be the replenisher.

Mogsby · Sep 21, 2017

georgegrosu said:
Is the negative color the same for all samples?

The negative colour look similar on the two samples. I think the developer is stable if used within 2 weeks, or maybe keep longer if in sealed airtight bottles. The film is Vision 3 500T.
I have some Vision 2 50D, it is old and will have colour shifts. No good for me testing the home brew. I spent a lot of money buying fresh vision film..
I cannot afford a medium format scanner at the moment, maybe next year I can buy one.
Thank you for the Kodak LAD link, I bookmarked it, I can study it in full later.
I will try a different agitation method. Maybe a constant, but very slow spin of the reel.

Mogsby · Sep 21, 2017

georgegrosu said:
My advice is to have a vigorous agitation at first (10-15 seconds) and then moderate.

In the cine lab the film would be slowly moving through the tanks, not stopping. Also there is filtered circulation. Things are different in a tiny Paterson tank .
I have access to developer pour off from a lab and have used it, I get the same results from it. The whole project is frustrating.
I have a Maginon Scanner I bought form Lidl supermarket. Maybe the scanner is crap.
I stick to the 3 minute developer time, sometimes I pour the dev out at 2:50 min, other times I use 3:00 then pour out, not much difference in the result to be honest. The biggest leap forward for me was to use an acid stop bath rather than water washes. The negatives are a lot thinner when I use the Acid stop.
If I can find an affordable 35mm splicer I can string a few feet of all my film stock together and take my mate up on his offer of running it through the lab. That way I would have control negatives for all my Fuji and Kodak film stocks.

georgegrosu · Sep 22, 2017

Mogsby, when I said to scan with an „medium performance scanner”, I did not mean format, but that it must be something dedicated to scanning, not a phone ...
The scanner must have a software that knows how to put the colors as correct as possible.
I did not understand in what volume of ECN-2 developer do you want to process 100 ft (30 m)?
In connection with development time, 18 seconds ± means a variation of ± 10% of time.
So, there is a variation in the time of quite large development, which will produce other photographic results (densities).
As you say, using the stop solution makes you more transparent negatives.
Surely, the stop bath (ph ~ 1) is needed to stop the development of the negative.
Try to get negative as close as possible to Kodak LAD.

George

Mr Bill · Sep 22, 2017

Mogsby said:
In the cine lab the film would be slowly moving through the tanks, not stopping. Also there is filtered circulation.

Hi, as a note a cine machine, even if "the film would be slowly moving..." would give substantial agitation via submerged turbulator bars that are carefully adjusted to give the "correct" amount of development and to prevent streaking. And as George indicates, the need is greatest during the first part of development.

Mogsby said:
I have access to developer pour off from a lab and have used it, I get the same results from it.

That's a great thing to have for experimentation - the overflow is exactly what is being used to process the lab's film. So if your own developer exactly matches the lab developer, it indicates that your developer is good, and therefore any problems are due to something else.

Mogsby said:
If I can find an affordable 35mm splicer I can string a few feet of all my film stock together and take my mate up on his offer of running it through the lab.

A word of warning - don't even think about making your own splices to run through someone else's cine machine. All you need is to have one of your splices come apart in their machine and possibly ruin a good chunk of film behind it. Let THEM do all the splicing, even if you have to pay for it, or buy doughnuts or lunch for the techs.

It seems to me that your main problem is the lack of a good evaluation method for your processing - a pro lab would normally use a densitometer to compare their processed test strips to already-processed reference strips from the manufacturer. If your local lab is friendly, you might see (offer to pay for this) if they'll give you a test strip or two to process, and then read it for you. (if they won't take money, make sure to bring a box of doughnuts, or whatever, to show appreciation.) Without this sort of thing you could set up a visual evaluation of some sort - compare your processed film against the same target processed by a professional lab. Best would probably be to slice the negs through a set of color test patches so you could butt the two films together on a light table. The evaluation is basically, is my film lighter or darker on each patch.

One last comment, forget about the CFL for test film. Those things virtually all are the energy-efficient sort, putting light (spectrally-speaking) only where humans are efficient at seeing it. Your best bet is either tungsten, daylight, or electronic flash using appropriate filters where needed (I'd recommend the flash in manual mode; it's a reliable source of good light.)

Ps, no experience with ECN, only still camera systems, but I have a great deal of experience with cine machines and process control.

georgegrosu · Sep 22, 2017

In the cine labs that have processing machines from 100 m / hour to about 4000 m / hour.
Typically, high speed machines are used in positive processes, where the material can be restored.
In negative processes, the developing machines have lower flows to ensure increased safety (600 - 800 m / hour).
A processing machines at 100 m / hour have about 50 liters of developer.
A processing machines at 600 m / hour have about 500 liters of developer.
Using a densitometer to measure the fog density and the maximum density helps a lot.

George

Mogsby · Sep 23, 2017

georgegrosu said:
The scanner must have a software that knows how to put the colors as correct as possible.

George, I realise my scanner is No Good, its low performance , I lack the funds to get anything better at the moment. Its a usb free standing style scanner i use with its slide and negative tray. Probably in a way it acts as the most basic desitomter because it goes crazy if my negatives are too dark or light LOL. I imagine the software it uses has no settings for ECN film, in fact from what i have read most scanners do not!, But, if I can get close enough with the colours and grain I can auto correct in PS maybe.
I use the cine films for stills, I was thinking that with the Kodak replenishment rates I could dev 100ft of film in 1 Lt of solution, but your next comment has addressed and corrected my thinking. I can be an idiot most of the time.
All my gear is so basic, its a joke. I slowly sell off my old stuff and replace with more up to date or better stuff. The Cine films is a road I take because its a lot cheaper for me than doing C41, yet 10X more difficult.

Mogsby · Sep 23, 2017

Mr Bill said:
That's a great thing to have for experimentation - the overflow is exactly what is being used to process the lab's film. So if your own developer exactly matches the lab developer, it indicates that your developer is good, and therefore any problems are due to something else.

It is great but my mate drops it off in 20lt pails LOL, then i have the problem of getting it into smaller containers that I can seal with no air bubbles so it keeps for a while. But then I have to factor in degregation of the developer. The bleach and Fix are great, they keep fairly well, but with so much I can do a few rolls of film then dump it. the guide for the fix is that you can see it has fixed within 30 secs, the last 1:30 is just for completion. When i see the fixing go past 30 secs, I can dump it and start a new bottle. The developer is the main concern in my eyes and you are correct in saying it is where I need to focus.

Mr Bill said:
A word of warning

I will ask my mate about the spicing, winter is coming and the work load for the lab slackens a bit, I'll se if he has time for my stuff. I'll ask him for some control strips, I think he mentioned them at some point in the past. Would be good to get some, if I can. Most of all I need to work on consistency with my testing and keep full notes of what I do.

Mr Bill said:
putting light (spectrally-speaking) only where humans are efficient at seeing it.

Your spot on! My days in a school maintenance team, the 'light guy' rep as we named him was forever telling us about the new daylight tubes/bulbs and how they throw the light to the foor and corners. Mostly like you say, its about how we humans see the light, plus the push to get away from tungsten lights. Tungsten lights are hard to come by these days and the new LED lights are rubbish, they do not last and throw out the worst light possible. I'll one of my flash units

Mr Bill said:
Ps, no experience with ECN, only still camera systems, but I have a great deal of experience with cine machines and process control.

You are the perfect guy for advise, I'm using ECN film for stills, or trying to .

Mogsby · Sep 23, 2017

Just for fun, i went out with my daughter to help with her collefe work, all about fabric in the landscape or something like that. She shot digital, I shot film, Kodak vision3. The fabric shots I developed in the homebrew ecn2 on ots 3rd fil within a week, the flower pic I developed in the proper Kodak deceloper.

georgegrosu · Sep 24, 2017

Mogsby, I think there are problems with the quality of negative scans.
I gave a „auto color” to a few pictures and here's how it looks.
With your scanner, I think it's more confusing than to help you.
The Hazeltine color analyzer our laboratory had (1980) is now far exceeded.
Now Color Master devices are used.
These specially designed device for cine film are very expensive.
They are made in few copies for all over the world.
In connection with the ECN-2 developer from the machine, I think you have to look a little at the Kodak storage period.
I believe the ECN-2 developer from the machine can be kept for one week in safety.
I do not understand why you want to develop 100 ft in a liter of developer + compensation (replenisher).
If you have a great candidate of ECN-2 developer, I would use it once and then throw it away.
I think for you, the compensation is a lot complicated in manual mode.

George

Athiril · Sep 24, 2017

The ECN2 processing book gives a formula for the developer (working) and replenisher, if you mathematically dilute the developer down to compare the numbers to the working solution you can get an idea of the difference, which gives you an idea what to make the starter from. I had figured out a starter formula for it at one point but have since forgotten.

Mogsby · Sep 24, 2017

georgegrosu said:
Mogsby, I think there are problems with the quality of negative scans.
I gave a „auto color” to a few pictures and here's how it looks.

I agrre with you, my scanner is not helping me at all. A better quality scanner is on the shopping list but there are few coins in the purse . At the moment I am trying to sell off all my older Kodak and Fuji cine film stocks on Ebay.
At the moment I have access to the proper ECN2 chemicals but things could change, hence my need to mix my own from raw chemicals. But that has its costs when I factor in shipping costs, I got the CD3 from a guy in Italy, along with some other stuff to make the shipping worthwhile. Kodak say floating lid keeps the chemicals safe for 2 weeks, but thats if you have the Kodak anti fog AF2000 included, I do not have that in my home recipe.
Ok, onto your colour corrections of my negative and firstly thank you for taking the time and effort for me, its greatly appreciated. When I study the colour card jpg I can see the white it much better but the black is worse, the other colours on auto correct are a lot better, but more griany.. But it is diffult to see truley, its depending on what monitor/screen it is viewed on. Plus the interpolation of cheap scanners, yeah i am sure it is there even if its 5mp raw then 12mp interpolation, its in the 5mp of a cheap scanner.
My passion for film comes from going from film as a kid, then Video... which proved to be rubbish, then digital and now back to film. i have lost so many digital pictures due to failed hardware.
I attach a photo of my Uncle from 1944 he is on the right.. Sadly he died in 1945, Film has preserved him, we wait 60 years to see how digital fairs!.

georgegrosu · Sep 25, 2017

Athiril, I am currently using the Kodak documentation for the ECN-2 color negative process.
https://www.kodak.com/Kodak/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_08.pdf
In the present case, I suspect that the scans here are far from reality.
Mogsby, I think a convenient option for you would be to go to a mini lab to scan the cine film (a film).
Do not worry about dedicated software for ECN-2 film.
For amateurs there is no dedicated software for ECN-2 film.
Scanners generally handle such films responsibly.
It is important that the color temperature at shooting is correct.
Mogsby, you tell me that the ECN-2 developer can be kept for two weeks.
There is talk of fresh and unused compensation (replenisher).
You have the ECN-2 developer from a lab - used.
Based on a storage week, to have repeatable results.
Use the method - to develop a film and throw the developer.
The fog substance has no photographic effect.
It is for keeping color stability in time.
If you do not put the antifog substance on the ECN-2 developer, it's just the same, but the colors can degrade after a while.
You are talking about the dimensions of the scanned image.
The scanned image size (mb) is not the most important thing for a scanner.
If the scanner knows how to accurately render details in black (density over 3), it is much more important than a large image.
The fact that thedeveloper is from a lab, that is almost a safety for you.
You can only influence the development time and the passing time of the developer in the stop.
Here is the problem not to carry a lot of developer to the stop.

George

Mogsby · Sep 25, 2017

georgegrosu said:
Mogsby, you tell me that the ECN-2 developer can be kept for two weeks.
There is talk of fresh and unused compensation (replenisher).
You have the ECN-2 developer from a lab - used.
Based on a storage week, to have repeatable results.
Use the method - to develop a film and throw the developer.
The fog substance has no photographic effect.
It is for keeping color stability in time.

George, I read the Kodak module and its says that developer in the tank can keep for one week open lid and two weeks floating lid, my mate tells me the flaouting lid can be plastic balls!. I realise the tank has 100's of litres and has the anti fog for keeping quality. The pour off I get, I put it in PET fizzy drink bottles and expell the air as best i can, the squezzed bottle allows room for expansion. The first batch of pour off I got, i sealed that in beer bottles and Crown capped them. It was OK over the winter, spring came and the bottles exploded in the heat . The pour off developer I get I will use as one shot, as you suggest. The developer I make from the raw chemicals does need the anti fog to help with the keeping quality. I will find the anti fog and buy it. I have two parts, the pour off and the raw chemical mix, I need the third part, the lab developing. Then I can compare the results.
There is a company close to me that supplies replenisher concentrates, but its enough to fill a bath tub.

I'll find somewhere to get my negatives scanned on a proper scanner.

georgegrosu said:
It is important that the color temperature at shooting is correct.

Another can of worms!. I have Number 85 warming filters that I use to shoot the 500T in daylight @ 320 iso,but, non are kodak filters, they are a mix of Hoya etc. all say they are No.85 yet I can clearly see they are all different density/shade/colour even!, probably for some of the filters, its due to age.

georgegrosu said:
You can only influence the development time and the passing time of the developer in the stop.

I'll load up 3 short length cassettes of the fresh film and shoot them under same light conditions, then procces them using the pour off developer as one shot for each film. For consistency of the stop I will make 3 bathes and use use stop in turn.

lantau · Sep 26, 2017

My developer without AF2000 lasted for months. Of course I digitise and colour correct in software. So I couldn't tell if there were moderate deviations. As I mentioned I got my hands on the antifoggant now. So I'm using almost real developer now, only lacking the antical.

The statements about how long the developer lasts in those big tanks cannot be applied to our situation. Even 'covered' there will be a lot of exposed surface. I keep mine in glass bottles and use protectan.

The buffer used in ecn dev is carbonate based, so that might be why it blew up. Use screw cap and open occasionally. Especially upon strong temperature changes.

I cannot recommend shooting Vision films when saving money is the principal reason. I find it interesting and so I invested in it. Just like film in general. But doing it properly is some effort. Each time to remove the remjet, and generally to obtain all chemicals and tools. Scales, volumetric cylinders and a good pH meter. I spend €400 on the last one. But it is accurate and will last for a long time to come.

A good digital colour and a copy stand will be the best way to digitise. All manual but full control. Scanners are a waste should you need a digital camera anyway.

lantau · Sep 26, 2017

lantau said:
A good digital colour and a copy stand will be the best way to digitise.

I meant to say digital camera.

It's unfortunate that the film can't be printed on ra4. I'd love to print on print film. But it is difficult to get. What would I do with 2000 feet. I also don't have a source for CD2. And lastly it seems to be near impossible to contact print without proper equipment...

So it is hybrid only. That's what I do anyway, but it would have been nice if it could be printed if I managed to get into ra4, eventually.

georgegrosu · Sep 26, 2017

Mogsby, is the difference between the fresh clearing revealer that can last for two weeks and a revelator used in the car.
Keeping the machine revelator in colored PET bottles is an acceptable method.
Glass is the best solution, but it is more difficult to obtain.
Your bottle of drveloper broke because he froze and increased his volume.
Nothing exploded.
Wratten 85 color correction filters, even if they are not Kodak, are likely to change the color temperature.
Follow the filter indications.
It is important to scan at least a few photograms developed by you on a normal scanner (minilab type - for example).
I think scans will look good.
If your sky is a bit blue in your scanner, on a better scanner the colors will be more acceptable.

George

Mogsby · Sep 26, 2017

lantau said:
It's unfortunate that the film can't be printed on ra4. I'd love to print on print film. But it is difficult to get. What would I do with 2000 feet.

I have a small amount of 2383 and last winter spent many evening trying to contact print from the Cine negatives. It is very difficult to do. The Kodak ECP I think is now using CD3 I will have to check that, or maybe PE on here knows. I am still on the hunt for some more 2383, if push comes to shove I'll have to buy the 2000ft direct from Kodak . Not all bad though as I can get it wound down and there are a few people on here chasing the stuff.

lantau said:
I cannot recommend shooting Vision films when saving money is the principal reason. I find it interesting and so I invested in it. Just like film in general

I started with B&W 19 months ago then did some C41 stuff. Its expensive stuff to be playing with when you are learning and making a lot of mistakes. I started looking at bulk B&W film to get the costs down, then i stumbled on all the Motion picture bulk film on Ebay. Ok the Cine films have the Remjet, but I am pretty good at getting rid of most of it, dust is once again the biggest enemy when it comes to ecn film, not so much the remjet anymore. I just got 5 x 400ft of vision2 500T for £100 delivered off Ebay. I had won all 10 cans for that price, but I took half as honestly the bloke was on holiday when the auction ended and he must have been gutted, I felt sorry for the guy. Anyway, now I am hooked on ECN film and I reallly want to continue with it. It is nice film and with more skill and learning I am sure I can get really good results.

ECN2 developer starter!

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