ECN-2 Kits Available

[hansblix]

cheers for reply. i just checked out your site. your prices are very competitive. i will most def bookmark your lab for my colour stuff. now to find some fresh off cuts.

www.qwdlab.com

We have some examples of Vision3 5219 on there. We only process genuine ECN-2 and we also have film if you need some.

We are ig: qwdlab

DM me if we can help.

 

[Rudeofus]

I am glad the ECN-2 home kit is available, I have a lot of Vision film but have not bothered to spool any down to a cassette because of the problems in getting the developer in a quantity I can use. I print my C41 color neg film using RA4, has anyone here done this with properly developed Vision film with results they like? I know these films were never intended for printing on paper.

This image has been shot on Cinestill 800T, developed in what was my best effort to replicate ECN-II process, and enlarged onto Supra Endura processed in home brew RA-4 chemistry.

 

[fdonadio]

Can you post some pics when dry? Id love to see that!

Unfortunately, they are not as great as I thought. Bleaching and fixing seems to be OK, but I got extremely thin negatives. The indoor shots are terrible, the outdoor ones are kind of usable.



I didn’t do anything different than what I use to (processing). I believe these rolls were long expired and stored inadequately (they were given to me) or my developer was bad. Strange thing I mixed it a couple of hours before using.

 

[btaylor]

Rudeofus, thank you so much for the RA4 print example. The soft color palette is enticing. I am going to give it a try.

 

[koraks]

I am glad the ECN-2 home kit is available, I have a lot of Vision film but have not bothered to spool any down to a cassette because of the problems in getting the developer in a quantity I can use. I print my C41 color neg film using RA4, has anyone here done this with properly developed Vision film with results they like? I know these films were never intended for printing on paper.

My apologies if I missed anything in this fairly elaborate thread. I picked the above post because it reflects quite closely my curiosity that I had a little while ago.

Essentially, I was intrigued by Cinestill film, decided I would rather use the original Vision3 stock, but I also wanted to be able to make passable RA4 prints here at home. I got some Vision3 50D (35mm) and first tried the often-used route of C41 development. This resulted in fairly high contrast negatives, but moreover uncorrectable/skewed color balance. Even scanned negatives required an in my eyes unacceptable amount of trickery in PS to get them right - and I wasn't looking for a PS exercise to begin with.

I therefore resorted to cobbling up an ECN-2 developer based on what I could find online in terms of formulae, adapted to the materials I had lying around anyway. The resulting developer works, but it does not conform to any official specification. However, it seems to work quite alright for what I want it to do.

Due to the lower gamma of ECN-2, I decided to overexpose the film by 2/3 stop (so E.I. 32 instead of the 50 ISO box speed) in order to preserve shadow detail.

Here are some sample scans from RA4 prints made from Vision3 50D negatives, developed in my homebrew ECN-2 chemistry:

Both above on Fuji Crystal Archive II (a paper I will not buy again due to problems getting even, deep blacks). If true blacks are missing in the images above, keep in mind this is an artifact of the digital scans; the prints themselves occupy the full density range of the paper.

These are from the same film stock on Kodak Endura F, which seems to give more saturation, although the lighting conditions were also different (natural afternoon late-summer sunlight as opposed to studio strobes in the portraits above):

All RA4 prints developed in Fuji Hunt MP90 RA4 developer at room temperature.Filtering was, if I recall correctly, a little outside the regular 'box' of C41 films, requiring more yellow filtering than C41 films (something like 10-20CC if memory serves).

The ECN-2 chemistry I used consisted of a DIY developer, a ferricyanide bleach and a regular C41 fix. I also used a remjet removal bath (borax/sulfite/sodium hydroxide) and a few rinse baths (with vigorous shaking) prior to development. I wiped the negatives after processing with my fingers to remove a very slight remaining veil of carbon particles from the remjet layer. The formulas I used are below:

Remjet removal bath:
Borax: 20g/l
Sodium sulfite: 100g/l
Sodium hydroxide: 1g/l

ECN-2 developer:
Sodium sulfite: 2g/l
Potassium bromide: 1.4g/l
Sodium carbonate decahydrate (AKA cleaning soda): 68.8g/l
Sodium bicarbonate: 2.7g/l
CD3: 4g/l
Bring pH up to 10.25 using sodium hydroxide 10% solution

Stop bath:
Sulfuric acid 37% (AKA battery acid): 10ml/l

Ferricyanide bleach:
Potassium ferricyanide: 40g/l
Potassium bromide: 25g/l

Fixer was a regular C41 fixer from a Rollei Digibase kit; any roughly pH neutral fixer should work as far as I can tell.

Processing steps were as follows:
Remjet removal bath: 1 minute; temperature not critical
Power-rinse (fill tank, shake vigorously): ca. 30 seconds, temperature not critical; repeat 3 times until wash water is perfectly clear (pink dyes will also wash out during this step and in the remjet removal bath).
Developer: 3min 15 sec. @ 41.1C Jobo CPE2 slow rotation speed (ca. 30rpm IIRC)
Stop: 30 seconds @ 27-41C
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41C, repeat 3 times
Bleach: 3 minutes @ 38C (not critical)
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41, repeat 3 times until wash water does not contain the least trace of yellow from the bleach bath
Fix: 2 minutes @ 38C (longer fixing doesn't hurt; use C41 fixing times if so desired)
Wash thoroughly.
I did not use a conditioner or stabilizing bath, but I understand this could be wise for long-term storage. Especially for these test negatives I was not very concerned about long-term stability and I have to be frank in that I usually don't really bother about that. Hence, by non-professional DIY approach works well enough for me, but may not suit the requirements of more strict darkroom workers.

Overall, the process seems to yield negatives that can be used to make (for me) satisfactory prints with fairly neutral colors. Contrast is on the low side, but this is exactly what I was looking for, since RA4 papers tend to give rather contrasty images anyway and for e.g. portraiture, a more low-contrast look is sometimes desirable. I have not tried any pushing or pulling with ECN-2 (yet).

 

[analogphotog]

My apologies if I missed anything in this fairly elaborate thread. I picked the above post because it reflects quite closely my curiosity that I had a little while ago.

Essentially, I was intrigued by Cinestill film, decided I would rather use the original Vision3 stock, but I also wanted to be able to make passable RA4 prints here at home. I got some Vision3 50D (35mm) and first tried the often-used route of C41 development. This resulted in fairly high contrast negatives, but moreover uncorrectable/skewed color balance. Even scanned negatives required an in my eyes unacceptable amount of trickery in PS to get them right - and I wasn't looking for a PS exercise to begin with.

I therefore resorted to cobbling up an ECN-2 developer based on what I could find online in terms of formulae, adapted to the materials I had lying around anyway. The resulting developer works, but it does not conform to any official specification. However, it seems to work quite alright for what I want it to do.

Due to the lower gamma of ECN-2, I decided to overexpose the film by 2/3 stop (so E.I. 32 instead of the 50 ISO box speed) in order to preserve shadow detail.

Here are some sample scans from RA4 prints made from Vision3 50D negatives, developed in my homebrew ECN-2 chemistry:

Both above on Fuji Crystal Archive II (a paper I will not buy again due to problems getting even, deep blacks). If true blacks are missing in the images above, keep in mind this is an artifact of the digital scans; the prints themselves occupy the full density range of the paper.

These are from the same film stock on Kodak Endura F, which seems to give more saturation, although the lighting conditions were also different (natural afternoon late-summer sunlight as opposed to studio strobes in the portraits above):

All RA4 prints developed in Fuji Hunt MP90 RA4 developer at room temperature.Filtering was, if I recall correctly, a little outside the regular 'box' of C41 films, requiring more yellow filtering than C41 films (something like 10-20CC if memory serves).

The ECN-2 chemistry I used consisted of a DIY developer, a ferricyanide bleach and a regular C41 fix. I also used a remjet removal bath (borax/sulfite/sodium hydroxide) and a few rinse baths (with vigorous shaking) prior to development. I wiped the negatives after processing with my fingers to remove a very slight remaining veil of carbon particles from the remjet layer. The formulas I used are below:

Remjet removal bath:
Borax: 20g/l
Sodium sulfite: 100g/l
Sodium hydroxide: 1g/l

ECN-2 developer:
Sodium sulfite: 2g/l
Potassium bromide: 1.4g/l
Sodium carbonate decahydrate (AKA cleaning soda): 68.8g/l
Sodium bicarbonate: 2.7g/l
CD3: 4g/l
Bring pH up to 10.25 using sodium hydroxide 10% solution

Stop bath:
Sulfuric acid 37% (AKA battery acid): 10ml/l

Ferricyanide bleach:
Potassium ferricyanide: 40g/l
Potassium bromide: 25g/l

Fixer was a regular C41 fixer from a Rollei Digibase kit; any roughly pH neutral fixer should work as far as I can tell.

Processing steps were as follows:
Remjet removal bath: 1 minute; temperature not critical
Power-rinse (fill tank, shake vigorously): ca. 30 seconds, temperature not critical; repeat 3 times until wash water is perfectly clear (pink dyes will also wash out during this step and in the remjet removal bath).
Developer: 3min 15 sec. @ 41.1C Jobo CPE2 slow rotation speed (ca. 30rpm IIRC)
Stop: 30 seconds @ 27-41C
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41C, repeat 3 times
Bleach: 3 minutes @ 38C (not critical)
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41, repeat 3 times until wash water does not contain the least trace of yellow from the bleach bath
Fix: 2 minutes @ 38C (longer fixing doesn't hurt; use C41 fixing times if so desired)
Wash thoroughly.
I did not use a conditioner or stabilizing bath, but I understand this could be wise for long-term storage. Especially for these test negatives I was not very concerned about long-term stability and I have to be frank in that I usually don't really bother about that. Hence, by non-professional DIY approach works well enough for me, but may not suit the requirements of more strict darkroom workers.

Overall, the process seems to yield negatives that can be used to make (for me) satisfactory prints with fairly neutral colors. Contrast is on the low side, but this is exactly what I was looking for, since RA4 papers tend to give rather contrasty images anyway and for e.g. portraiture, a more low-contrast look is sometimes desirable. I have not tried any pushing or pulling with ECN-2 (yet).

This! I can get the chemistry right. will this work for super8 from kodak? eg. Vision 3 50D? Should I follow a different timesheet?

 

[koraks]

I'm not sure what your question is, but the examples I showed in the quoted post were shot on Vision3 50D. It shouldn't matter what physical format you use.

 

[soulstar89]

My apologies if I missed anything in this fairly elaborate thread. I picked the above post because it reflects quite closely my curiosity that I had a little while ago.

Essentially, I was intrigued by Cinestill film, decided I would rather use the original Vision3 stock, but I also wanted to be able to make passable RA4 prints here at home. I got some Vision3 50D (35mm) and first tried the often-used route of C41 development. This resulted in fairly high contrast negatives, but moreover uncorrectable/skewed color balance. Even scanned negatives required an in my eyes unacceptable amount of trickery in PS to get them right - and I wasn't looking for a PS exercise to begin with.

I therefore resorted to cobbling up an ECN-2 developer based on what I could find online in terms of formulae, adapted to the materials I had lying around anyway. The resulting developer works, but it does not conform to any official specification. However, it seems to work quite alright for what I want it to do.

Due to the lower gamma of ECN-2, I decided to overexpose the film by 2/3 stop (so E.I. 32 instead of the 50 ISO box speed) in order to preserve shadow detail.

Here are some sample scans from RA4 prints made from Vision3 50D negatives, developed in my homebrew ECN-2 chemistry:

Both above on Fuji Crystal Archive II (a paper I will not buy again due to problems getting even, deep blacks). If true blacks are missing in the images above, keep in mind this is an artifact of the digital scans; the prints themselves occupy the full density range of the paper.

These are from the same film stock on Kodak Endura F, which seems to give more saturation, although the lighting conditions were also different (natural afternoon late-summer sunlight as opposed to studio strobes in the portraits above):

All RA4 prints developed in Fuji Hunt MP90 RA4 developer at room temperature.Filtering was, if I recall correctly, a little outside the regular 'box' of C41 films, requiring more yellow filtering than C41 films (something like 10-20CC if memory serves).

The ECN-2 chemistry I used consisted of a DIY developer, a ferricyanide bleach and a regular C41 fix. I also used a remjet removal bath (borax/sulfite/sodium hydroxide) and a few rinse baths (with vigorous shaking) prior to development. I wiped the negatives after processing with my fingers to remove a very slight remaining veil of carbon particles from the remjet layer. The formulas I used are below:

Remjet removal bath:
Borax: 20g/l
Sodium sulfite: 100g/l
Sodium hydroxide: 1g/l

ECN-2 developer:
Sodium sulfite: 2g/l
Potassium bromide: 1.4g/l
Sodium carbonate decahydrate (AKA cleaning soda): 68.8g/l
Sodium bicarbonate: 2.7g/l
CD3: 4g/l
Bring pH up to 10.25 using sodium hydroxide 10% solution

Stop bath:
Sulfuric acid 37% (AKA battery acid): 10ml/l

Ferricyanide bleach:
Potassium ferricyanide: 40g/l
Potassium bromide: 25g/l

Fixer was a regular C41 fixer from a Rollei Digibase kit; any roughly pH neutral fixer should work as far as I can tell.

Processing steps were as follows:
Remjet removal bath: 1 minute; temperature not critical
Power-rinse (fill tank, shake vigorously): ca. 30 seconds, temperature not critical; repeat 3 times until wash water is perfectly clear (pink dyes will also wash out during this step and in the remjet removal bath).
Developer: 3min 15 sec. @ 41.1C Jobo CPE2 slow rotation speed (ca. 30rpm IIRC)
Stop: 30 seconds @ 27-41C
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41C, repeat 3 times
Bleach: 3 minutes @ 38C (not critical)
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41, repeat 3 times until wash water does not contain the least trace of yellow from the bleach bath
Fix: 2 minutes @ 38C (longer fixing doesn't hurt; use C41 fixing times if so desired)
Wash thoroughly.
I did not use a conditioner or stabilizing bath, but I understand this could be wise for long-term storage. Especially for these test negatives I was not very concerned about long-term stability and I have to be frank in that I usually don't really bother about that. Hence, by non-professional DIY approach works well enough for me, but may not suit the requirements of more strict darkroom workers.

Overall, the process seems to yield negatives that can be used to make (for me) satisfactory prints with fairly neutral colors. Contrast is on the low side, but this is exactly what I was looking for, since RA4 papers tend to give rather contrasty images anyway and for e.g. portraiture, a more low-contrast look is sometimes desirable. I have not tried any pushing or pulling with ECN-2 (yet).

kodak vision films are low contrast stock as they are made to capture as much information in the scene then be colour graded after. the portraiture shots def yield a low contrast negative so it seems that you have cracked the development. well done.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I therefore resorted to cobbling up an ECN-2 developer based on what I could find online in terms of formulae, adapted to the materials I had lying around anyway. The resulting developer works, but it does not conform to any official specification. However, it seems to work quite alright for what I want it to do.

Great results and thanks for sharing your tested formula. What is the capacity of your ECN-2 developer? And how long will it remain stable?

 

[koraks]

To be frank, I wouldn't know. I didn't really test it beyond reusing it once or at most twice within a timespan of one or two days in some tests. There is no HAS in the developer formula and only a small amount of sulfite, so I would consider it for one-shot use only. I did experiment a bit with a concentrate for the developer that required mixing with water and addition of the CD3 in the form of dry powder just before use, so only the CD3 had to be weighed. But I didn't pursue that approach extensively; seemed to work OK though and make things a bit more convenient.

Overall, I have never been entirely satisfied with the color rendition and hence, these experiments have been bookshelved for quite a few months now. I might pick them up once again, but have no specific plans atm.

 

[alanrockwood]

Hans, if you are still checking this thread can you answer a question or two for me?

How does the Remjet removal work when using your kits? For example, will I have to soak the film in the prebath and then wipe the remjet off? Alternatively, will I have to place the film face down on a flat surface in a dark room and the "sponge" the remjet off the back? Alternatively, does it simply remove the remjet within the processing tank without any mechanical action other than agitation?

I have a Jobe CPE2 (which I have never used) and a Phototherm (which I have used for black and white but not color processing). Can you comment on the suitability of those processors for your ECN-2 kits?

Thanks.

 

[mohmad khatab]

My apologies if I missed anything in this fairly elaborate thread. I picked the above post because it reflects quite closely my curiosity that I had a little while ago.

Essentially, I was intrigued by Cinestill film, decided I would rather use the original Vision3 stock, but I also wanted to be able to make passable RA4 prints here at home. I got some Vision3 50D (35mm) and first tried the often-used route of C41 development. This resulted in fairly high contrast negatives, but moreover uncorrectable/skewed color balance. Even scanned negatives required an in my eyes unacceptable amount of trickery in PS to get them right - and I wasn't looking for a PS exercise to begin with.

I therefore resorted to cobbling up an ECN-2 developer based on what I could find online in terms of formulae, adapted to the materials I had lying around anyway. The resulting developer works, but it does not conform to any official specification. However, it seems to work quite alright for what I want it to do.

Due to the lower gamma of ECN-2, I decided to overexpose the film by 2/3 stop (so E.I. 32 instead of the 50 ISO box speed) in order to preserve shadow detail.

Here are some sample scans from RA4 prints made from Vision3 50D negatives, developed in my homebrew ECN-2 chemistry:

Both above on Fuji Crystal Archive II (a paper I will not buy again due to problems getting even, deep blacks). If true blacks are missing in the images above, keep in mind this is an artifact of the digital scans; the prints themselves occupy the full density range of the paper.

These are from the same film stock on Kodak Endura F, which seems to give more saturation, although the lighting conditions were also different (natural afternoon late-summer sunlight as opposed to studio strobes in the portraits above):

All RA4 prints developed in Fuji Hunt MP90 RA4 developer at room temperature.Filtering was, if I recall correctly, a little outside the regular 'box' of C41 films, requiring more yellow filtering than C41 films (something like 10-20CC if memory serves).

The ECN-2 chemistry I used consisted of a DIY developer, a ferricyanide bleach and a regular C41 fix. I also used a remjet removal bath (borax/sulfite/sodium hydroxide) and a few rinse baths (with vigorous shaking) prior to development. I wiped the negatives after processing with my fingers to remove a very slight remaining veil of carbon particles from the remjet layer. The formulas I used are below:

Remjet removal bath:
Borax: 20g/l
Sodium sulfite: 100g/l
Sodium hydroxide: 1g/l

ECN-2 developer:
Sodium sulfite: 2g/l
Potassium bromide: 1.4g/l
Sodium carbonate decahydrate (AKA cleaning soda): 68.8g/l
Sodium bicarbonate: 2.7g/l
CD3: 4g/l
Bring pH up to 10.25 using sodium hydroxide 10% solution

Stop bath:
Sulfuric acid 37% (AKA battery acid): 10ml/l

Ferricyanide bleach:
Potassium ferricyanide: 40g/l
Potassium bromide: 25g/l

Fixer was a regular C41 fixer from a Rollei Digibase kit; any roughly pH neutral fixer should work as far as I can tell.

Processing steps were as follows:
Remjet removal bath: 1 minute; temperature not critical
Power-rinse (fill tank, shake vigorously): ca. 30 seconds, temperature not critical; repeat 3 times until wash water is perfectly clear (pink dyes will also wash out during this step and in the remjet removal bath).
Developer: 3min 15 sec. @ 41.1C Jobo CPE2 slow rotation speed (ca. 30rpm IIRC)
Stop: 30 seconds @ 27-41C
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41C, repeat 3 times
Bleach: 3 minutes @ 38C (not critical)
Wash: 30 seconds @ 27-41, repeat 3 times until wash water does not contain the least trace of yellow from the bleach bath
Fix: 2 minutes @ 38C (longer fixing doesn't hurt; use C41 fixing times if so desired)
Wash thoroughly.
I did not use a conditioner or stabilizing bath, but I understand this could be wise for long-term storage. Especially for these test negatives I was not very concerned about long-term stability and I have to be frank in that I usually don't really bother about that. Hence, by non-professional DIY approach works well enough for me, but may not suit the requirements of more strict darkroom workers.

Overall, the process seems to yield negatives that can be used to make (for me) satisfactory prints with fairly neutral colors. Contrast is on the low side, but this is exactly what I was looking for, since RA4 papers tend to give rather contrasty images anyway and for e.g. portraiture, a more low-contrast look is sometimes desirable. I have not tried any pushing or pulling with ECN-2 (yet).

+1

God bless you
Thank you for this great information.
But allow me to inquire ..
Regarding your experience ,,
Was it a roll (50D)?
- Did you use any filters during shooting to correct the color, or similar?
Is the solution formula (remove support edition) is this recipe really effective?
thank you very much

 

[koraks]

Was it a roll (50D)?

Yes, I got a 50ft roll from the UK, sold via ebay.

Did you use any filters during shooting to correct the color, or similar?

None at all. However, in further testing, I was never able to satisfactorily avoid significant crossover with blue shadows and yellow highlights.

Is the solution formula (remove support edition) is this recipe really effective?

The chemistry seemed to work fine, yes. But the curves of the film just didn't seem to match the response curves of RA4 paper.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes, I got a 50ft roll from the UK, sold via ebay.


None at all. However, in further testing, I was never able to satisfactorily avoid significant crossover with blue shadows and yellow highlights.


The chemistry seemed to work fine, yes. But the curves of the film just didn't seem to match the response curves of RA4 paper.

I was inquiring about a remjet removal solution. Does this solution really have the ability to completely remove it without having to take out the negative in the dark and wipe it with a wet sponge and so on ..?
I apologize for the many questions.
We have a large roll that was packed in cartridges and sold to new amateurs. Presumably it is I who will process these cartridges after they are photographed.
Therefore, I was somewhat apprehensive of the remjet layer and read some articles that talk about the side effects that this layer can cause if it is not completely removed.

 

[koraks]

I was inquiring about a remjet removal solution. Does this solution really have the ability to completely remove it without having to take out the negative in the dark and wipe it with a wet sponge and so on ..?

This solution removes around 99.9% of the remjet; the remainder can be wiped off with a soft cloth or tissue after processing is done while the film is still wet.
The remjet removal step involves a rinse in the mentioned solution, followed by 3 washes in plain water with very vigorous shaking. You'll see the wash water become free of black remjet material with each wash.

 

[mohmad khatab]

This solution removes around 99.9% of the remjet; the remainder can be wiped off with a soft cloth or tissue after processing is done while the film is still wet.
The remjet removal step involves a rinse in the mentioned solution, followed by 3 washes in plain water with very vigorous shaking. You'll see the wash water become free of black remjet material with each wash.

God bless you, my dear friend
Thank you very much for everything ,,
You are a respectable friend.

 

[koraks]

You're welcome Mohmad. Good luck with your endeavors!

 

[alanrockwood]

I have been processing in ECN-2 to spec for quite some time and always had a lot of interest around it. I also realize that not everyone can order 30 chemicals to their home and start mixing them.

A few film friends and I started an Indie lab processing ECN-2 rolls and also providing ECN-2 Kits for people who want to process themselves but also don't have the capability to do so.

We all work on the motion side of film and wanted to start a company and give back to the community with a service that isn't really being offered.

Check us out

www.qwdlab.com

https://www.qwdlab.com/ecn2-kitandfilm/

I noticed that as of this month you are no longer selling direct to the public. What are the implications of this regarding pricing?

Also, I see one problem in the instructions. Although most of the steps can be run at a fairly loose temperature range, the developer is specified to run at 106 F and the bleach is specified to run at 80 F. (The pre-wet also runs at 80 F.) If this temperature difference (106 F vs. 80 F) is truly required it means that it is not practical to use this process in a machine like a Jobo that is a one-temperature machine. Can the process be run at 106 F for all steps?

 

[alanrockwood]

I noticed that as of this month you are no longer selling direct to the public. What are the implications of this regarding pricing?

Also, I see one problem in the instructions. Although most of the steps can be run at a fairly loose temperature range, the developer is specified to run at 106 F and the bleach is specified to run at 80 F. (The pre-wet also runs at 80 F.) If this temperature difference (106 F vs. 80 F) is truly required it means that it is not practical to use this process in a machine like a Jobo that is a one-temperature machine. Can the process be run at 106 F for all steps?

One more thought. Can you re-use the solutions, and if so how much time has to be added to developing time with each re-use? Alternatively, can the developer be diluted and used as a one-shot developer?