ECN-2 Kits Available

[AgX]

Actually, it doesn't contain a biocide. The final rinse is just KODAK Stabilizer Additive which is 100% POLYOXYETHYLENE 12 TRIDECYL ALCOHOL and a biocide is optional such as Proxel GXL.

I think you might be getting confused with rewash formula which are two separate things which contains sodium sulfite and bi-sulfite.

I'm not getting confused. You are.
I was referring to Kodak ECN-2 / ECP-2D Kit Final Rinse. And that contains a biocide.
Actually all surfactant/tenside compositions I know contain a biocide. The question that arises is whether in a gfinal rinse that is sufficient to protect te emulsion.
Advice to add a biocide is referring to microorganism grow within the tank during continous use, but that is something different

 

[pbromaghin]

$4/roll, not bad.

 

[hansblix]

I'm not getting confused. You are.
I was referring to Kodak ECN-2 / ECP-2D Kit Final Rinse. And that contains a biocide.
Actually all surfactant/tenside compositions I know contain a biocide. The question that arises is whether in a gfinal rinse that is sufficient to protect te emulsion.
Advice to add a biocide is referring to microorganism grow within the tank during continous use, but that is something different

Well the thing is that Kodak spec for ECN-2 processing calls for POLYOXYETHYLENE 12 TRIDECYL ALCOHOL aka Kodak Stabilizer Additive as the Final Rinse. If you look closely at the Bellini kit offered the chemical listed on the bottle is of Final Rinse 1,2-benzisothiazolin-3-one which is PROXEL GXL.

So not only is the kit not to spec but they are using a biocide reserved for continuous use in a tank if thats the case.

Are you saying that Polyoxyethylene 12 Tridecyl Alcohol acts as a biocide in addition to a surfactant? Because what I understood was that it is 100% Polyoxyethylene 12 Tridecyl Alcohol is a surfactant and it hasn't been referenced as a biocide and also being 100% that there were no additives to it.

 

[AgX]

The final rinse offered by Kodak uses as biocide1,2-benzisothiazolin-3.
For the Bellini one I do not know. But benzisothiazolin is common in use with surfactants.

 

[Rudeofus]

The final rinse offered by Kodak uses as biocide1,2-benzisothiazolin-3.
For the Bellini one I do not know. But benzisothiazolin is common in use with surfactants.

But that's not the final rinse recommended for ECN-2. I laid out in my previous posting, why there is good reason to believe, that ECN-2 process does not necessarily need a biocide.

And then there is biocide to protect the concentrate, and biocide to protect a working solution. In the latter case the biocide has to be present in much higher concentration, and that doesn't appear to be the case with Kodak's Stabilizer Additive.

 

[AgX]

"But that's not the final rinse recommended for ECN-2."
Well, but Kodak only sells this one.

What makes you think "that ECN-2 process does not necessarily need a biocide"?

 

[Rudeofus]

"But that's not the final rinse recommended for ECN-2."
Well, but Kodak only sells this one.

Kodak provides mixing instructions for ECN-2 process chemistry, and in the final rinse a biocide is marked "optional". Kodak sells "Kodak Stabilizer Additive", which contains at most enough biocide to remain stable as a concentrate, and even that's not sure.

What makes you think "that ECN-2 process does not necessarily need a biocide"?

It's right there in the H2407 document on page 7-33:

If biological growth becomes a problem, Proxel GXL may be added at 0.07 mL/L, or Spectrus NX106 at 0.7 mL/L.

That's quite a dose of "if" and "may", and therefore a strong indication, that a biocide is not essential ingredient.

 

[AgX]

Kodak provides mixing instructions for ECN-2 process chemistry, and in the final rinse a biocide is marked "optional". Kodak sells "Kodak Stabilizer Additive", which contains at most enough biocide to remain stable as a concentrate, and even that's not sure.

Some wetting agents contain about 10-times what seems necessary to protect the concentrate, but already the working solution, due to gross dilution of the concentrate, is no longer protected. So in continuous use (industrial labs) one must protect this additionally.
But that all is not yet about emulsion protection.

My experience so far is that only me and PE are concerned about this. At one major manufacturer I even found complete ignorance on this matter at the chemists in charge of manufacturing wetting agent.

 

[Rudeofus]

Long term storage facilities for Hollywood ECN-2 film strips are likely such that mold growth is a non-issue. There must be a reason, why ECN-2 does not, but C-41 and ECP-2 processes do require biocides . The latter two are commonly stored in less than optimal conditions.

If we follow this way of reasoning, then qwdlab should probably add a stabilizer bath with biocide to their kit, even if ECN-2 process does not mandate it. Sadly, it will take several years before we know.

 

[AgX]

There must be a reason, why ECN-2 does not, but C-41 and ECP-2 processes do require biocides.

But as far as I can see they do not necessarily get it either.

 

[Rudeofus]

But as far as I can see they do not necessarily get it either.

You are correct for ECP-2, its process manual uses the same language as ECN-2 process manual. But Kodak's Flexicolor final rinse for C-41 does have a biocide in it, and it's listed in its MSDS.

 

[hansblix]

I will be honest I think that a lot of this is assumptions and being made up. We DO recommend the use of a surfactant.

 

[hansblix]

Kodak provides mixing instructions for ECN-2 process chemistry, and in the final rinse a biocide is marked "optional". Kodak sells "Kodak Stabilizer Additive", which contains at most enough biocide to remain stable as a concentrate, and even that's not sure.


It's right there in the H2407 document on page 7-33:

That's quite a dose of "if" and "may", and therefore a strong indication, that a biocide is not essential ingredient.

Its doesn't contain a biocide though. There is nothing added to it. It may in a roundabout way possibly and this is a stretch act as a biocide but it is referenced only in patents and in general as a wetting agent/surfactant. You guys are making some big assumptions here and not really backing it up with facts.

 

[soulstar89]

I have been processing in ECN-2 to spec for quite some time and always had a lot of interest around it. I also realize that not everyone can order 30 chemicals to their home and start mixing them.

A few film friends and I started an Indie lab processing ECN-2 rolls and also providing ECN-2 Kits for people who want to process themselves but also don't have the capability to do so.

We all work on the motion side of film and wanted to start a company and give back to the community with a service that isn't really being offered.

Check us out

www.qwdlab.com

https://www.qwdlab.com/ecn2-kitandfilm/

great idea!!!

i live in the uk and this would have been a great idea here in England as the large labs wont take a couple 36 rolls of film.

how is the latitude of these films compared to say portra?

 

[fdonadio]

What makes you think "that ECN-2 process does not necessarily need a biocide"?

The fact that there is no biocide listed in the published ECN-2 formulas! Stabilizer additive is only a surfactant.

Proxel GXL (benzoisotiazolinone) is used in the tank solution if, and only if, there is biological growth in the solution. I am sure, in this case, some of it would be absorbed by the emulsion.

If you really want to make sure the gelatin won’t be attacked by fungus, just use isotiazolinones or even formaldehyde in the final rinse. I tend to believe it will do no harm (in adequate amounts).

 

[MattKing]

The biocide may be optional because a large portion of ECN-2 films are slated to be scanned, and many users may not store the negatives long term thereafter. You don't need long term storage unless you plan on keeping the film long term.

 

[AgX]

The fact that there is no biocide listed in the published ECN-2 formulas! Stabilizer additive is only a surfactant..

As I already stated above there is a biocide in all surfactant compositions I I know. But this would be too weak to my understanding to protect the emulsion.
Of course one could add further biocide. But one could also make all the processing baths from scrap, so that is no argument.

 

[hansblix]

As I already stated above there is a biocide in all surfactant compositions I I know. But this would be too weak to my understanding to protect the emulsion.
Of course one could add further biocide. But one could also make all the processing baths from scrap, so that is no argument.

I totally see where you are coming from but if you look at the patent and formula there is no additional biocide in Kodak Final Rinse. So there is a possibility that it acts as some very mild form of biocide but chemically there is no additional biocide in the formula and is only ever referenced as a surfactant. So in this instance as far as anyone knows per Kodaks patent and MSDS there is no additional biocide. I think that what he is trying to convey.

 

[hansblix]

great idea!!!

i live in the uk and this would have been a great idea here in England as the large labs wont take a couple 36 rolls of film.

how is the latitude of these films compared to say portra?

Vision3 has the most latitude of any film I have worked with. Portra does have some Vision3 tech within it. I would say, cousins. But because of the printmaking process latitude is needed.

 

[soulstar89]

Vision3 has the most latitude of any film I have worked with. Portra does have some Vision3 tech within it. I would say, cousins. But because of the printmaking process latitude is needed.

cheers for response. i find with portra i can meter 2 stops under for the darkest area where i want to hold detail. does vision 3 have more underexposure ability?. i work in tv but we only use digital.

 

[fdonadio]

Of course one could add further biocide. But one could also make all the processing baths from scrap, so that is no argument

Well, if Kodak themselves are not including it in their formula, the only way I see is to add it myself, if I decide I need it.

I have just got out of the darkroom. I processed two rolls of Fuji Eterna Vivid 500T and used homebrewed ECN-2 developer. I noticed I’m out of PDTA for the bleach and decided I didn’t want to go through the hassle of mixing fresh fixer, so I went with C-41 bleach, fixer and final rinse. Film is drying and looks great!

 

[hansblix]

Well, if Kodak themselves are not including it in their formula, the only way I see is to add it myself, if I decide I need it.

I have just got out of the darkroom. I processed two rolls of Fuji Eterna Vivid 500T and used homebrewed ECN-2 developer. I noticed I’m out of PDTA for the bleach and decided I didn’t want to go through the hassle of mixing fresh fixer, so I went with C-41 bleach, fixer and final rinse. Film is drying and looks great!

Can you post some pics when dry? Id love to see that!

 

[btaylor]

I am glad the ECN-2 home kit is available, I have a lot of Vision film but have not bothered to spool any down to a cassette because of the problems in getting the developer in a quantity I can use. I print my C41 color neg film using RA4, has anyone here done this with properly developed Vision film with results they like? I know these films were never intended for printing on paper.

 

[bestbefore1978]

great idea!!!

i live in the uk and this would have been a great idea here in England as the large labs wont take a couple 36 rolls of film.

how is the latitude of these films compared to say portra?

Latitude is as good as Portra (the latest 160 and 400 films incorporate Vision3 technology) - if you are looking for an ECN2 lab in the UK, my lab offers this service silverpan.co.uk

 

[soulstar89]

Latitude is as good as Portra (the latest 160 and 400 films incorporate Vision3 technology) - if you are looking for an ECN2 lab in the UK, my lab offers this service silverpan.co.uk

cheers for reply. i just checked out your site. your prices are very competitive. i will most def bookmark your lab for my colour stuff. now to find some fresh off cuts.