ECN-2 Kits Available

hansblix · Nov 9, 2018

I have been processing in ECN-2 to spec for quite some time and always had a lot of interest around it. I also realize that not everyone can order 30 chemicals to their home and start mixing them.

A few film friends and I started an Indie lab processing ECN-2 rolls and also providing ECN-2 Kits for people who want to process themselves but also don't have the capability to do so.

We all work on the motion side of film and wanted to start a company and give back to the community with a service that isn't really being offered.

Check us out

www.qwdlab.com

https://www.qwdlab.com/ecn2-kitandfilm/

Richard Man · Nov 10, 2018

Are there processing instructions and timing included?

Also remjet removal info would be good!

Thanks

Rudeofus · Nov 10, 2018

@Richard Man : if you click on the kit, it states that it comes with instructions. I would assume that those instructions would cover remjet removal, since there is a prebath concentrate included with the kit.

@hansblix : I see that there is no final rinse included with this kit. Are you confident that ECN-2 does not need a final rinse?

hansblix · Nov 10, 2018

@ Rudeofus: I am positive. At this moment we do not include it thought that may change. It is more of a wetting agent than anything and if you are using an ECN-2 kit I'm sure you have other options for a suffucant. I've used this process without the official Kodak final rinse and its not a problem the slightest bit.

@Richard Man: From beginning to end its covered including pre-bath remjet removal.

AgX · Nov 10, 2018

hansblix said:
I've used this process without the official Kodak final rinse and its not a problem the slightest bit.

You will not know as this is about a longevity issue:
Final rinse protecting the emulsion from microbiological harm.

Berri · Nov 10, 2018

There is a kit available in EU by Bellini.

AgX · Nov 10, 2018

Thank you for hinting at Bellini.
As on their site there is no specific hint at a small volume kit. Moreover as ECN is listed at the bulk kits, but not amongst the amateur kits, one must deduce there is no such kit.

lantau · Nov 10, 2018

AgX said:
You will not know as this is about a longevity issue:
Final rinse protecting the emulsion from microbiological harm.

.
The process is openly documented by Kodak, and when you look up what the ingredent is for the final rinse you'll realise it is only a surfactant. There is no Formaldehyde or other 'stabiliser'.
I processed two rolls of V3 film just a few hours ago and deremjetted another two rolls just 20min ago (will be developed tomorrow) and I'm simply using Photo-Flo 200.

AgX · Nov 10, 2018

Not quite. It countains a biocide.

The issue though is whether the concentration of this biocide is just sufficient to preserve the concentrate or enough for the emulsion. I admit I know that at the industry there was complete ignorance about this issue.

PE however posted repeatedly on the necessity of such preservative in the processed film.

MattKing · Nov 10, 2018

It may very well be that ECP print for projection films did not receive treatment that included a biocide, because they were designed for short lived use.
But I would assume that ECN camera films were intended to last. Without a biocide, that wouldn't happen.

AgX · Nov 11, 2018

No, Kodak use the same final rinse for both materials.

lantau · Nov 11, 2018

AgX said:
Not quite. It countains a biocide.

The issue though is whether the concentration of this biocide is just sufficient to preserve the concentrate or enough for the emulsion. I admit I know that at the industry there was complete ignorance about this issue.

PE however posted repeatedly on the necessity of such preservative in the processed film.

The biocide is optional. Note 1 of the Final Rinse recipe:

If biological growth becomes a problem, Proxel GXL may be addeed at 0.07mL/L, or Spectrus NX106 at 0.7mL/L.

Berri · Nov 11, 2018

AgX said:
Thank you for hinting at Bellini.
As on their site there is no specific hint at a small volume kit. Moreover as ECN is listed at the bulk kits, but not amongst the amateur kits, one must deduce there is no such kit.

https://ntphotoworks.com/shop/product/ecn2-home-processing-kit-by-bellinifoto-unique/

AgX · Nov 11, 2018

Thank you!

Why are retailer sites more informative than manufacturers' ones...?

AgX · Nov 11, 2018

So we got two kits.

With the european one for Europeans being about 50% cheaper (net price per film length).

Rudeofus · Nov 11, 2018

hansblix said:
@ Rudeofus: I am positive. At this moment we do not include it thought that may change. It is more of a wetting agent than anything and if you are using an ECN-2 kit I'm sure you have other options for a suffucant. I've used this process without the official Kodak final rinse and its not a problem the slightest bit.

Since US Patent 6852478 specifies a final rinse with Kodak Stabilizer Additive and a biocide (Dearcide 702), whereas US patent 7368230 specifies a final rinse with Kodak Stabilizer Additive and Formalin, there is a good chance that Kodak Stabilizer Additive is really just some fancy wetting agent, and that neither Formalin, nor a biocide are necessary for ECN-2. So you may be correct in your assertion, that the final rinse is not essential and that PhotoFlo would work just as well.

Allow me to bring up one more question: Kodak's ECN-2 spec lists a very unusual stop bath (at least for still film processing) at a very low pH. PhotoEngineer never explained why such a stop bath is specified, but did indicate, that it may be essential to forming correct image dyes. Since this new kit does not come with a stop bath: do you have positive confirmation, that such an aggressive stop bath is not needed?

AgX · Nov 11, 2018

Rudeofus said:
Since US Patent 6852478 specifies a final rinse with Kodak Stabilizer Additive and a biocide (Dearcide 702), whereas US patent 7368230 specifies a final rinse with Kodak Stabilizer Additive and Formalin, there is a good chance that Kodak Stabilizer Additive is really just some fancy wetting agent, and that neither Formalin, nor a biocide are necessary for ECN-2. So you may be correct in your assertion, that the final rinse is not essential and that PhotoFlo would work just as well.

The term "stabilizer" already is a problem as in colour film processing 3 kinds of stabilizers for different effects have been referred to.

hansblix · Nov 11, 2018

AgX said:
Not quite. It countains a biocide.

The issue though is whether the concentration of this biocide is just sufficient to preserve the concentrate or enough for the emulsion. I admit I know that at the industry there was complete ignorance about this issue.

PE however posted repeatedly on the necessity of such preservative in the processed film.

Actually, it doesn't contain a biocide. The final rinse is just KODAK Stabilizer Additive which is 100% POLYOXYETHYLENE 12 TRIDECYL ALCOHOL and a biocide is optional such as Proxel GXL.

I think you might be getting confused with rewash formula which are two separate things which contains sodium sulfite and bi-sulfite.

Ko.Fe. · Nov 11, 2018

Once I'll finish my last ECN-2 kit, I'll just use my C-41 kits and order more. I have no problems to mix C-41 and ECN-2 in it. Results are lomographish anyway.

Maybe if it processed in real ECN-2 developing machine...

hansblix · Nov 11, 2018

We are just trying to offer people a way to process in ECN-2 without having 20 chemicals sent to their home and have to suit up with PPE to mix it. Also, there is more incorrect information regarding this process than correct information. We got tired of it and started doing it right.

That is how this came about was we use this stock to scout for storyboards or tech scouts. Most motion labs won't run a roll or two. Cross processing wasn't an option so we started looking into ECN-2. After a long time of trial and error and little sleep learning everything we could over the last year or so, here we are.

If you buy Kodak chemistry you have to buy enough to fill a truck.

If you mix the recipe by hand you need a good amount of raw chemicals. Not everyone wants to order 20 chemicals to their home.

That's where we come in. No labs offer it. Not everyone wants to mix it themselves. Most people can't afford pallets of chemicals meant for a large lab from Kodak.

We all work in motion picture film and are bringing a product to the market where is a deficit. Working hand in hand with large motion labs is what we do for a living. We all shoot on motion stock for a living. This process works as it should and is time-tested. We are very open about our mixing procedures and how everything is to Kodak spec as any large lab would be. We are all pretty cool people and just want to help. Honestly, there is so much misinformation regarding this process even to use biocides as an example, we just want to provide a way to have everyone get the photos they want.

hansblix · Nov 11, 2018

AgX said:
So we got two kits.

With the european one for Europeans being about 50% cheaper (net price per film length).

Doesn't one of the Kts contain RA4 to ship outside the EU? Wouldnt that not be truly ECN-2?

hansblix · Nov 11, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
Once I'll finish my last ECN-2 kit, I'll just use my C-41 kits and order more. I have no problems to mix C-41 and ECN-2 in it. Results are lomographish anyway.

Maybe if it processed in real ECN-2 developing machine...

The problem might be the fact that motion picture stock comes out in low contrast log. It is meant to be color corrected with a best light pass as the minimum to get some color into it.

Motion stock is low contrast which is great for directors to color grade later on. In fact when you get your scans back from a motion lab you either get them in log, a best light pass which gets color most of the way there or sits in with someone and correct scene by scene. It is meant to be graded.

The good thing is that Vision3 was made with DI or digital intermediate in mind meaning it was designed to be scanned and color corrected digitally.

Edit: Can you share some photos that you processed with the other kit you purchased that has a Lomo effect? The photos should be very true to life once they are graded. I have seen my fair share of troubleshooting. I might be able to help.

Ko.Fe. · Nov 11, 2018

Well, I'm aware how current film production works. I remember to chat with Davinci color corrections guys at NAB, something like twenty years ago. Company I work for now, has cine production gear made for years.
And I knew original Lightworks guys and Discreet Logic guys.

To me cinefilm is cheapest way to get film in colors. And I'm perfectly fine with colors to be odd. I'm getting cheap ends and processing them in cheap developers.

fdonadio · Nov 11, 2018

hansblix said:
We are just trying to offer people a way to process in ECN-2 without having 20 chemicals sent to their home and have to suit up with PPE to mix it. Also, there is more incorrect information regarding this process than correct information. We got tired of it and started doing it right.

I applaud that initiative and think this is a great product (and service, for those that prefer to send the film for processing). I must confess I considered doing just that here in Brazil.

Good luck with your business. If I lived in the US, I would buy your kits, for sure.

fdonadio · Nov 11, 2018

hansblix said:
Motion stock is low contrast which is great for directors to color grade later on.

Have you tried underexposing it and/or pushing in processing to increase contrast?

ECN-2 Kits Available

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