Ebay Morality

smieglitz · Sep 20, 2005

Dan Fromm said:
Smieglitz, if Galli beats you consistently then the most you'll pay is consistently very, very low. Jim usually buys for resale and is very cold-blooded about bidding. He needs his margins, can't afford to overpay.

Perhaps, but I also suspect he and I seek similar things on occasion for our personal equipment. We have probably increased the market value of a couple lenses by stumbling over each other once in awhile on eBay. "Great minds think alike" and all that.

If I lose something I'm really after, it is usually Jim that I lose to. That's what is really consistent.

Joe

smieglitz · Sep 20, 2005

moose10101 said:
And you're also the one who's hosed the seller...

Naw. The seller is free to set any reserve price they want or to put a BIN price on the item should they really wish not to take a gamble. The sellers hose themselves.

A good detailed description, quality items, good pics and the right attitude can make all the difference to a seller's success. Check out the success of dagor77 for example. Starts all auctions at $0.77 and he rarely sets a reserve unless the item is truly rare. He is one of the most successful sellers in the camera section of eBay.

Personally, I think items usually bring a higher final price when no reserve is set. There will be exceptions, but that's part of the game. You win some and lose some.

Joe

jimgalli · Sep 20, 2005

BTW Joe, if you were bidding against me on that smallish Voigtlander Petzval the other day.........that I sniped and WON!!......it got here today. It'd be really neat..........if it only had a front group!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!

smieglitz · Sep 20, 2005

jimgalli said:
BTW Joe, if you were bidding against me on that smallish Voigtlander Petzval the other day.........that I sniped and WON!!......it got here today. It'd be really neat..........if it only had a front group!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!

Nope. The other day it was the small Wooly Vitax.

BruceN · Sep 20, 2005

I always snipe. I use auctionsniper.com. It ain't free, but it's fairly cheap. I do it for all the previously listed reasons and this one: I generally can't be around for the auction close to snipe by hand, so I have to either place a proxy bid or set a snipe. If I place a proxy bid and then find a better item, I'm screwed. A snipe can be canceled at any time up until the point where it actually places the bid. That's kind of a big deal for me as I frequently find that better items come up before the close of the original item.

Bruce

MattCarey · Sep 20, 2005

jimgalli said:
Yes I use snipe engines too.

That explains it!

A while back I was bidding on a set of like 13 old lenses from some guy up near Arcata, Calif. Bidding started getting heavy towards the end. Then I noticed Jim's moniker show up in the bidding. Since I really didn't want all the lenses, and I figured Jim would probably win anyway, I dropped out. Why make him pay extra? Probably not acceptable eBay style, but what the heck.

Anyway, I emailed Jim to tell him which lenses I was interested in, should he decide to divest himself of the new loot. A day later I get this email--"I just got back and I am still trying to figure out what auctions I won..." I thought it odd at the time.

Now I know-- Sniper engine!

Matt

resummerfield · Sep 20, 2005

BruceN makes a good point..... You can cancel a snipe up to the point it places a bid. I always perform a search of new items just before the item I want closes.

jimgalli · Sep 20, 2005

smieglitz said:
Nope. The other day it was the small Wooly Vitax.

small? SMALL?? That thing would hold the Queen Mary in bay during a hurricane. About what it's probably good for too.

MattCarey said:
Anyway, I emailed Jim to tell him which lenses I was interested in, should he decide to divest himself of the new loot.

Which ones were they Matt? Remind me again. Trying to think of a good 4X5 portrait lens for that guy in the other thread. jg

Karate Dad · Sep 20, 2005

I have to admit that I also snipe. I don't use any software, I just wait for as long as possible then put in my highest final bid. If I'm not going to be around for the end of an auction I'll bid early and then let it ride and see what happens. I've tried a bunch of different ways of bidding. I used to put out my best and final bid early. What I found would happen is that people would see the bid out there and then start chipping away at it. I have no problem if there are different bidders each putting in what they want to pay. If I lose an auction in that case it's simply a matter of someone wanting an item more than I did. Where I had a problem was when a single bidder put in multiple bids each 5 or 10 dollars more than the last. You can see that after awhile their goal is not to win the item but simply to beat the high bidder...it's almost an obsession. The bottom line was that I found that I usually lost when I bid early and in those cases when I did win it was always at the top of my proxy bid. With sniping I seem to minimize the impact from that population of people who bid in 5 dollar increments. While they are trying to bid up the current high price, I place my bid at what I feel would be the most I would pay for an item. Since there is so little time left at the end of the auction they usually only have 30 seconds to place a higher bid rather than 3 days.

smieglitz · Sep 20, 2005

jimgalli said:
small? SMALL?? That thing would hold the Queen Mary in bay during a hurricane. About what it's probably good for too...

Well Jim you know it is all relative. You may recall I mentioned I picked up the only 20" Vitax I've ever seen a couple months ago on eBay. I think you were occupied at the time picking up an old truck or T-bird IIRC.

I got the 20" to go with the 16" Vitax I already had. The one you won the other day was a 13" lens wasn't it? Mine's bigger.

Now if you had a 5A or 6A Dallmeyer...

Joe

removed account4 · Sep 20, 2005

personally, i think it is immoral, not using snipeware ( who has the time to be at the end of the auction anyways ) but to *not* tell the seller that the lens she is selling is a mint condition portrait lens, not "telescope lens broken" listed in the " astronomy " section, so i am the only bidder. it stinks when you get a 500$ lens for like 20$ because it is listed in some obscure place ---- > NOT

"i think whatever this thing is - is broken, it just opens and closes, and is missing a something" but "it comes with a neat velvet lined ashtray that says 'let the user judge' written in gold leaf" its not extra.

BruceN · Sep 20, 2005

jnanian said:
personally, i think it is immoral, not using snipeware ( who has the time to be at the end of the auction anyways ) but to *not* tell the seller that the lens she is selling is a mint condition portrait lens, not "telescope lens, i don't know how it works" listed in the " astronomy " section, so i'll be the only bidder. it stinks when you get a 500 lens for like 20$ because it is listed in some wrong and obscure place ---- NOT

"i think whatever this thing is - is broken, it just opens and closes, and is missing a something, but it comes with a neat velvet lined ashtray that says 'let the user judge' written in gold leaf"

OK, now that's just plain sick...

jimgalli · Sep 21, 2005

That's it Nanian. Ever hear of voodoo. Where's that search where you go see what other guys are bidding on...........dang it.

jnanian said:
personally, i think it is immoral, not using snipeware ( who has the time to be at the end of the auction anyways ) but to *not* tell the seller that the lens she is selling is a mint condition portrait lens, not "telescope lens broken" listed in the " astronomy " section, so i am the only bidder. it stinks when you get a 500$ lens for like 20$ because it is listed in some obscure place ---- > NOT

"i think whatever this thing is - is broken, it just opens and closes, and is missing a something" but "it comes with a neat velvet lined ashtray that says 'let the user judge' written in gold leaf" its not extra.

magic823 · Sep 21, 2005

The thing that pisses me off on ebay are the idiots that bid higher than they could buy the items new for. I occasionally email them with links to the item at less price. They usually say they didn't research it.

MattCarey · Sep 21, 2005

jimgalli said:
Which ones were they Matt? Remind me again. Trying to think of a good 4X5 portrait lens for that guy in the other thread. jg

This would have been while back. I'd say roughly March/April of this year. At the time, I was mad about getting a Verito, and there was one in the bunch with a shutter (as I recall). I also remember there being some huge monster lens, could have even been a Petzval. That plus another ~10 lenses, some of real oldies (early 1900's) as I recall.

I dropped into the bidding at around $500--held the top spot for a bit, got outbid, got back in...that's when your sniper 'bot came in.

The problem with a lot like that is, in my brother's words, "buying is easy, selling is an advanced topic". I'd still probably be trying to find cameras for all of those toys.

Matt

MattCarey · Sep 21, 2005

OK, I know this is off topic, but,

http://cgi.ebay.com/7-Verito-soft-f...548184797QQcategoryZ30076QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Verito for 35mm?

Matt

srs5694 · Sep 21, 2005

magic823 said:
The thing that pisses me off on ebay are the idiots that bid higher than they could buy the items new for.

Film is often in that category, particularly when you add in postage. I suspect the bidders are comparing the price to what they'd pay at the corner drug store, not what they'd pay at B&H, Adorama, Freestyle, or some other mail-order outfit.

Ole · Sep 21, 2005

Sometimes I bid what I consider to be a fair price, and then avoid checking on it until the auction is over. Sometimes I enter a low bid just in case nobody else finds it. And at other times I - snipe.

The "low bid" technique has landed me both some fine gear, and in financial trouble. That's how I ended up with a 5x7" Gandolfi which I really couldn't affort at that moment...

There was one occasion where I adviced a seller to pull an auction because he didn't know what he was selling: An "Antique camera, don't know if it works" was a pristine Voigtländer Bergheil 9x12cm, with Heliar 150mm lens, Tele-Dynar 270mm lens, ten plate holders with film inserts, roll film adapter, full set of filters, lens hoods, ... The seller's grandfather had boght it new with everything, and only used it once or twice. It had been in storage for the past 60 years. He pulled the auction and relisted it with better pictures after a CLA.

ANother seller I tried to get to pull an auction - a few days ago - didn't. No wonder, as he was selling the front group of a Tele-Xenar 240 as a complete lens...

That is to me a more important question of morality than sniping - and I once decided to feel honoured by being out-sniped by both Jim Galli and Andrew Glover

Andy K · Sep 21, 2005

If I am online when the auction is ending, and it is still within my price range, I will bid in the last few seconds. Mostly because if I bid my maximum amount in those last few seconds it doesn't give anyone else the time to outbid me (I consider it foolish to bid early on an item, it gives people time to beat your bid, drives the price up and declares your interest to the competition) but also because why should I have to carry on looking, possibly for weeks, for that perfect item? It isn't personal it's business.

Dan Fromm · Sep 21, 2005

smieglitz said:
<snip>

A good detailed description, quality items, good pics and the right attitude can make all the difference to a seller's success. Check out the success of dagor77 for example. Starts all auctions at $0.77 and he rarely sets a reserve unless the item is truly rare. He is one of the most successful sellers in the camera section of eBay.

<snip?
Joe

Joe, Andrew has complained to me that starting auctions at a low price, in his case $0.77, has cost him money. Not enough items sold for more than his cost. He started them higher for a while, isn't completely back to $0.77.

I'm not sure he has the volume to run a good market trial. Henry's might, though. Jim may disagree, but what we have now is just anecdotal.

Setting what seems like a reasonable, as in a price below recent final prices for comparable items, starting price doesn't always work. I just failed to sell a decent 150/2.8 Elcan, still not sure why. Oh, well, can't always win.

Cheers,

seadrive · Sep 21, 2005

moose10101 said:
Sniping software places a single proxy bid at the user's specified maximum amount. There's no "dollar here and a dollar there", and they don't run out of time. If you win, it's because you bid more, and that's exactly how it should be.

Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing out my misunderstanding of how these programs work.

The important point is to bid what you're willing to pay near the end of the auction. If you bid your max too early in the auction, someone will always come along who is willing to go a buck higher (having nothing to do with sniping programs).

I guess what I do is exactly what the sniping programs do, so... why am I not using one??? :confused:

gbroadbridge · Sep 21, 2005

It really doesn't make any difference whether you place your maximum bid at the start or close to the end of an auction - unless you're not being honest with yourself about how much you're really prepared to pay

Someone who comes along who is prepared to pay a buck higher than my bid is welcome to the item, because I will never bid higher than my first and only bid

Graham.

mmcclellan · Sep 21, 2005

Almost everything I won on eBay I won by "sniping," as that is about the only way to head off that extra 50 cents at the last minute that someone else puts in. Sniping is inevitable on eBay or any other auction service as there have to be time limits on things. My usual practice is to put in my "maximum bid" just a minute or two before the auction ends, if I'm able to be there at that time. My max bid is usually quite a bit higher than what is prevailing or I would not waste my time with it. I have even gone in with only 15 or 30 seconds to go, just to be safe, even from overseas.

I have won over 100 auctions over the years, many of them with "snipes." In hardly any case did I get a steal, however, just a decent deal as the final price was near my maximum bid. Sniping is about the only way to beat the other snipers (i.e., wise bidders) who are out there competing with you. )

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2005

jimgalli said:
That's it Nanian. Ever hear of voodoo. Where's that search where you go see what other guys are bidding on...........dang it.

search? ... it's ye olde "favorite sellers" list.
it always helps if you refer to their "broken" item
as a "contraption."

one of my fav's is " i've got this big thing that says kodak portrait lens, but it looks like it is missing something in front, do you want that too, since it is missing stuff you can just have it "

i LOVE attic cleaner-outers!

Flotsam · Sep 21, 2005

Flotsam said:
It seems like a a dirty trick that tends primarily to hose the seller. I guess if all the buyers just bid what they are willing to spend, then a sniper will either lose or pay too much, but it kills the fair and thoughtful bidding aspects of the auction.

I'm thinking of a situation where an item is sitting around at $100. You feel that a fair and affordable value for that item is $300. If you bid that amount early on, then someone comes along and starts probing for where the bid is at. He gets up to $250 and decides that it is more than he wants to pay. At the end of the auction you pay $250 + the increment where, if you had sniped you would have payed $100 + the increment. You are out 150 bones purely because you didn't snipe.

Of course the seller would have gotten much closer to the value of his item which is what I meant by it's the seller that tends to get hosed by the sniping process.

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