Durst TRA 450 Timer connection

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Murdog36

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Maybe a silly question but I’m a little stuck at the moment.

Connecting the timer directly into the back of the TRA 450(timer socket), powers up the timer but still doesn’t activate the lamp in the enlarger with the switch at the front set to “timer”. “Lamp” switch works fine.

If I connect the power source from the TRA450 directly into the timer and timer to the wall, it blows the fuse after a few uses.

Am I supposed to connect the TRA 450 to the wall, the timer to the wall, and then use a male to male cable to connect the 2?

Any help would be much appreciated
 
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Murdog36

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So something like this?
00BB97F2-546D-46CA-8A1E-DFE15DBD1C86.jpeg
 
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Murdog36

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Which fuse? And what's the rating of this fuse?
It should be a slow-blow type in any case.

Yea it’s the slow blow 2.5A . I think because doing it that way, it turns on and off everything at the same time. Fans and all. Where if I have the timer just turning on the lamp, the power and fans and can stay on continuously
 

koraks

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So it's the fuse on the TRA450 that blows, not the one on the timer? Sorry my question wasn't clear :smile:

Yes, you may be right in that if the unit turns on all at once (lamp, fans etc.) it might trip the fuse. I'm kind of surprised this would happen, though, since Durst used to be pretty elaborate in their electronics engineering and it seems like a basic oversight that they didn't protect it against this contingency.
 
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Murdog36

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So it's the fuse on the TRA450 that blows, not the one on the timer? Sorry my question wasn't clear :smile:

Yes, you may be right in that if the unit turns on all at once (lamp, fans etc.) it might trip the fuse. I'm kind of surprised this would happen, though, since Durst used to be pretty elaborate in their electronics engineering and it seems like a basic oversight that they didn't protect it against this contingency.

Yea, the actual fuse in the back of the TRA. It does have the Lamp/Timer switch which must be to compensate for that but still struggling to get the timer controlling it
 

AgX

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I am ignorant on the TRA 450 and quite puzzled by this all...

To me the only idea of feeding a timer from the TRA would be to keep wiring from a wall outlet limited. But this does not explain that feeding the TRA from a timer (as usual with such devices) would cause havoc at the TRA, at worst I rather would expect the opposite (due to inductive load of the TRA). And that the TRA got an extra input for a timer (though with dedicated plug) likely going to an internal relay seems to be to save a timer from this or any substantial load.
Maybe looking at the circuits would make me wiser, maybe I shall find time for this.
 

koraks

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To me the only idea of feeding a timer from the TRA would be to keep wiring from a wall outlet limited.

I think the idea here is to have the timer switch the lamp relay inside the TRA450 instead of having the timer switch on the entire TRA450. There's a schematic of the thing here: https://125px.com/docs/manuals/darkroom/durst/Durst TRA450 Wiring Diagrams.pdf

I guess what I'd do is open it up and verify if the relay works - and also check if the timer connects properly with the TRA450 in accordance with the schematic and the design intent, using a continuity meter and visual inspection. I find it difficult to explain online without physical access to the device how to proceed; I'm sorry. If I end up with one of these things on my desk (there's a good chance this will happen at some point) I'll be sure to follow up!
 

AgX

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I think the idea here is to have the timer switch the lamp relay inside the TRA450 instead of having the timer switch on the entire TRA450. There's a schematic of the thing here: https://125px.com/docs/manuals/darkroom/durst/Durst TRA450 Wiring Diagrams.pdf

Yes and no... I already added the hint at a relay at the TRA, but for this feature a timer would not need to be fed by the TRA. Thus my idea of limiting cables to the wall outlet. Or with other words, these are two different issues.
But as you got the link to the (different) circuits, you or another fellow may find the definite answer to this all...
 

koraks

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but for this feature a timer would not need to be fed by the TRA.

This is correct, indeed.

Ah, I think I spotted it. I guess I've been silly for not noticing right away.

@Murdog36 you need to plug in a Euro-style power plug into the timer and the other end into the connector on the TRA450 that says 'timer input', next to the big white power output for the timer. It shouldn't matter much if you plug the timer's power cord into its own wall outlet or the TRA450's timer power output. Might as well do the latter to make the cabling less ugly, but it's inconsequential. So the red connection you drew into the photo isn't correct; it shouldn't go into the white connector on the TRA450 but the black one right next to it. Could you try this, please?
 
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Murdog36

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This is correct, indeed.

Ah, I think I spotted it. I guess I've been silly for not noticing right away.

@Murdog36 you need to plug in a Euro-style power plug into the timer and the other end into the connector on the TRA450 that says 'timer input', next to the big white power output for the timer. It shouldn't matter much if you plug the timer's power cord into its own wall outlet or the TRA450's timer power output. Might as well do the latter to make the cabling less ugly, but it's inconsequential. So the red connection you drew into the photo isn't correct; it shouldn't go into the white connector on the TRA450 but the black one right next to it. Could you try this, please?

Great, I have ordered a euro cable male to male to connect the two. I’ll keep you updated
 

AgX

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Great, I have ordered a euro cable male to male to connect the two. I’ll keep you updated

What for? There is no need for such cable. Moreover a male to male hook-up could be deadly...

(By the way, over here a "Euro"-cable is a 2-pole connection. Yes, this mess at electrical designations can be frustrating.)



The idea by Durst seemingly is:

-) the TRA to be connected to the mains by a 3-pole german "Schuko" CEE 7/4 at the wall outlet,
and with a "Warmgerätestecker" C22 at its casing right-below at "Power Input"

-) the Timer to be connected with its mains cable and CEE 7/7 plug to the female "Schuko" connector left-above at "Timer 220".

-) the Timer to be connected with its Schuko outlet (where normally the enlarger mains cable is pluggd in) with a dedicated cable, with a male Schuko plug at this end and a "Kaltgerätestecker" C13 on the other, to the TRA at its connector center-above at "Timer Input".
This cable you have to fabricate.


That a standard hook-up did not work, I still do not understand, but still I have not contemplated on the circuit scheme...
 
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AgX

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Now I am completely confused...

What did he try then?

And for a standard hook-up he does not need an extra cable.
(Other than an adaper to the british "G" wall outlet, but that he would need from the start, at any kind of hook-up.)
 

koraks

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What did he try then?

The connection drawn in red in the photo.

And for a standard hook-up he does not need an extra cable.

He needs an extra cable for what he's going to do. There will be three cables involved:
* Wall outlet to TRA450 (Euro plug; cable present)
* Wall outlet or TRA450 'timer output' to Timer power input (hardwired to Timer, so cable present)
* Timer output to TA450 'timer input' (Euro plug; on order)

Hope this clears it up for you.
 

AgX

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He needs an extra cable for what he's going to do. There will be three cables involved:
* Wall outlet to TRA450 (Euro plug; cable present)
* Wall outlet or TRA450 'timer output' to Timer power input (hardwired to Timer, so cable present)
* Timer output to TA450 'timer input' (Euro plug; on order)

Hope this clears it up for you.

It confuses me even more, if possible at all...


But I leave it at this, and hope the OP does not kill himself, as the connection he draw in red already is possibly deadly.
 

koraks

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as the connection he draw in red already is possibly deadly
I think it explains the blown fuses alright :wink:
Fortunately, Irish houses can be expected to have protective measures that will prevent this from being deadly, although it sure can be frightening. Shorting 230V outlets with low impedance makes a darn loud bang alright (and it's also an effective, albeit poorly controlled way for some copper vapor deposition).
 

AgX

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WARNING to all tinkering with Mains Electricity:


a Cable Connection with SAME Connectors at Both Ends means a possibly DEADLY set-up



(independant whether at both ends are male connectors or "just" female ones)
 

koraks

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Indeed. Such cables are not even supposed to exist, although nothing would stop someone from cobbling one together of course.

Btw, my apologies for suggesting OP has actually tried the connection drawn in red in the photo; I think he only proposed it.
 

AgX

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That was my impression too, that is why I got confused in first instance.
 
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Murdog36

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Sorry if my original post was misleading.
These are the 2 ways I’ve tried:

1. Durst TRA 450 plugged into the mains. Timer plugged into the back of the TRA 450 in the “Timer 220v” . TRA power switch on and timer/lamp switch set to timer. It gives power to the timer but the timer isn’t controlling the lamp. Only the Timer/Lamp on the front of the TRA works the lamp as usual.

2. Timer plugged into the mains. TRA 450 plugged into the back of the timer. TRA power switch on and timer/lamp switch set to lamp. This worked for a couple of tries but eventually blew the original fuse in the TRA. I bought a few spares, tried with a new fuse and happened again.

Without the timer, the TRA works fine. Leaving the power switch on and just using the Lamp/Timer switch to turn the light on and off. Without turning off the power to the fans. It’s a Durst CLS 450 Colour head by the way.

I was enquiring about having the TRA connected to the mains and the timer connected to the mains. Then use a cable from the back of the TRA to the back of the Timer, which would be a male to male cable I would have to make myself. I ordered 2 plugs from Amazon. Will I blow myself up?

834F77C8-6F64-4350-B892-F67FDDC59E4E.jpeg
D626E733-AAA0-4FB7-BE10-404106BF5199.jpeg
702A3297-AA82-417D-A229-763B1B73B592.jpeg
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koraks

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Then use a cable from the back of the TRA to the back of the Timer, which would be a male to male cable I would have to make myself. I ordered 2 plugs from Amazon. Will I blow myself up?

Yes. Or rather, you'll trip the fuse.

You need a male cable on the Timer side with female device plug on the TRA side where it goes to "timer input". It's the standard cable that connects every PC and many other devices to a wall outlet. Odds are you have one or more in a box somewhere.

As @AgX said, you NEVER make a male - male cable for power applications. That's why they aren't sold. They're not supposed to exist. Do NOT make the connection as you drew in red on the photo.
 

AgX

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As I indicated above, even a female - female cable is dangerous. Not as cable, but as set-up, as at one of the appliences there may be a live, blank male-connector.
 
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Murdog36

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Yes. Or rather, you'll trip the fuse.

You need a male cable on the Timer side with female device plug on the TRA side where it goes to "timer input". It's the standard cable that connects every PC and many other devices to a wall outlet. Odds are you have one or more in a box somewhere.

As @AgX said, you NEVER make a male - male cable for power applications. That's why they aren't sold. They're not supposed to exist. Do NOT make the connection as you drew in red on the photo.

Ah, I got you. So attach a female to the timer wire and attach to the “Timer Input”. Not the “Timer 220v”. Sounds good. I just immediately presumed it could only in the 220 because of the plug. I’m sure I have a cable like that lying around. Thanks
 
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