durst 138

[mitch brown]

Can someone tell me how to tella durst 138 from a 138S
thanks

 

[ic-racer]

I'll let the 138 and 138S owners chime in, but if there is no other reply, the manuals I have seem to indicate the "S" has the foot pedal operated table. (see attached picture of the non-'S' and maybe lack of foot pedal).
I think the 138 3-lens turret is fixed and not removeable. Maybe I will be shown wrong on these points.

 

[AgX]

Interesting. BUT if you were right, the colour version on the right should be designated "Color Laborator 138S", which it isn't. Or was the idea to leave off the S, as the colour version was only delivered with that foot pedal from the start? Wasn't there a earlier colour head?

 

[Lachlan Young]

@ic-racer there were apparently something like 4-5 generations of the 138/ 138S - you do get ones with the footpedal table and the built-in lens turret - not sure when the move to the UNIPLA lens board model happened - the very last generation used a different neg carrier and casing for the light source/ condensers. I think the move to footpedal with the hose running to the table seems likely to represent the shift from 138 to 138S - then subsequent evolution to the UNIPLA lens board, finally moving to TRINEG carrier and new design of lamp house/ condenser setup - with the TRINEG continuing with the Durst Optopia.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The 138 series was around quite awhile and there are numerous variations of the chassis itself, plus a variety of head and carrier options, including multiple colorhead designs over time. Most components are interchangeable. My own two are 138S which I subsequently customized per light source and diffusion device. One of them came as a combo with the traditional condenser head, which I removed, and have never used. Perhaps the "S" designation has something to do with that, just like the green brochure depicts. Somewhere online there's a "Durst museum" website with some interesting pictures. I have basic L138 and L148 manuals; but they're generic with all kinds of tweaks and optional things shown. I've also encountered the hybrid 138/184 chassis for oversized baseboard use, and a rare octagonal precision column 138 chassis.

 

[138S]

Can someone tell me how to tella durst 138 from a 138S
thanks

The 138 is the oldest model, it lacks the spring alowing the table to "float" suspended, more difficult to move it. Also the 138 header in more rudimentary having a worse handling, also probably he carrier is less perfected. The 138 is good but the 138S is more refined.

What included Negative Carrier is important, I know well 3 models: NEGA, NEGA 138 o TRINEG. We have two Nega 138 (perhaps the most common to find, at least in my area), perhaps the best is the 3rd one but it requires a modern head, older heads require an special adapter that's not easy to find.

When purchasing a carrier one should make sure that required maks are included, and at least one ANR (Anti Newton Rings) glass, masks for the TRINEG may be difficult to find if not included.

To me glass carriers are the perfection, but extra care has to be played with dust, a cheap HEPA air purifier can be a nice aid to remove dust from air.

To cover 5x7" a 110mm bulb is required, if an halogen (not opal) bulb is used then an special "diffuser" glass is required (LAPAL accessory), this is a very suitable illumintion but that LAPAL accessory is required, note that the lens boards have a similar nane (LAPLA)

Here I uploaded several manuals including the Service Manual:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SIcQm3BgkVltl4pLw_y0oEcUwGeu6X5q?usp=sharing

If you get one, I would recommend you use this particular lubricant extensively: Interflon Fin Super (advanced teflon oil, not grease). Use this particular one, just try it. It will help to remove internal solidified grease and it will provide a long term lubrication like no other product.

https://interflon.com/products/interflon-fin-super-aerosol

 

[DREW WILEY]

There were also two generations of pin-register carriers and receivers. I haven't used mine yet because I also have that kind of gear for my L184 8X10 unit, and just ordinarily use my NEGA 138 book-style carriers for smaller negs.

 

[Lachlan Young]

From what I've seen evidence of/ worked with:

138 - NEGA carrier
138S - NEGA 138, built-in turret, foot pedal baseboard from here onwards
138S - NEGA 138, UNIPLA
138S - TRINEG, UNIPLA
138S - TRINEG, UNIPLA, new condenser lamphouse design

The GRAHALON and the TRINEG were the two pin-reg carrier variants, there was a different tensator spring that has to be fitted for the CLS 1000 head

Kienzle will make a new TRINEG type carrier with/ without masking strips (plus adapter plates presumably), supply AN/ plain glass for all the carriers & whatever kind of metal inserts you want, along with a good deal of replacement parts and dichroic/ condenser light sources.

 

[AgX]

I would recommend you use this particular lubricant extensively: Interflon Fin Super (advanced teflon oil, not grease). Use this particular one, just try it. It will help to remove internal solidified grease and it will provide a long term lubrication like no other product.
https://interflon.com/products/interflon-fin-super-aerosol

A long term lubricating oil that contains vegetabile oil makes me wonder, I already have issues with mineral oils becoming smelly after few years. I do not need vegetabile oils resinating. (Well, I know vegatabile oils that remain stable longer than others.)

 

[138S]

A long term lubricating oil that contains vegetabile oil makes me wonder, I already have issues with mineral oils becoming smelly after few years. I do not need vegetabile oils resinating. (Well, I know vegatabile oils that remain stable longer than others.)

A vegetable oil cannot compete with a thin layer dry teflon lubricant...

This one: https://interflon.com/products/interflon-food-lube-aerosol



Is the H1 atoxic certified version that can be used for food processing machinery, accidental contacts with food are not a concern, nearly no smell, an incredible penetration and a powerful solvent effect to remove the dirt inside (as you move the mechanics), then the solvent evaporates and what remains is a very persistent teflon thin layer.

The "Fin" version is nearly the same but it is not H1 food grade certified. I tried most good alternatives for demanding applications (high speed razors in food packaging) and these ones were true game changers. The two 138S we have were extensively lubed with those, and years after I move the table up/down with a single finger, we were told that we had to disassembly the clutch mechanisms (etc) and we avoided that, with perfect results. Many 138 units have a lot of dirt (solidified grease) inside that is difficult to clean.

An alternative would be using a degreaser extensively before lubricating, but the penetration and edurance of a top quality thin layer dry teflon oil is not easy to match. Still it has to be real top notch one, many (even expsnive) teflon oils are lower performers, compared.

 

[DREW WILEY]

No vegi oil substitutes. They break down. And yes, I've been given samples to test, at least within the past 5 yrs. The best contained jojoba oil. Dry teflon sprays sometimes leave a white residue, so test those first too. Avoid silicones. Avoid WD-40; it's a junk product. Durst used grease on their helical drive rods on their bigger L184 chassis; it lasts, but obviously attracts grit. I'd rather go greaseless and if necessary apply a teflon blend more often that dries completely.

 

[AgX]

I referred to vegetabile oils only as 138S in his first advice referred to an oil that contains such. (Though in combination with mineral oils, which likely prevents the classic resination.)

 

[DREW WILEY]

"Mineral oil" means something specific which is NOT a lubricant, nor a solvent, and has no relation to this topic. "Mineral spirits" is a solvent, synonymous with "paint thinner". None of the above belong on an enlarger. Mineral oil is used as a temporary sealer on wooden food chopping blocks because it doesn't go rancid like vegetable oils. Actual industrial lubricants derived from vegetable molecules are something else entirely, and hypothetically appropriate, and will not need thinning with anything additional. But none of these that I've personally tested held up for very long.

 

[AgX]

"Mineral Oil" or its translations is the internationally used term for oil made by destillation of crude oil, including lubricants.
But as you say, in the English speaking world it has often a more restricted meaning.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That's correct. In the USA there is a very specific LEGAL definition of mineral oil because it's also used medicinally and routinely sold in drugstores. But if you want to get rich, you simply buy a big container of mineral oil and repackage it in tiny little bottles labeled as butcher block oil or wooden bowl oil at a 1,000% markup, just as long somewhere in the fine print or MSDS sheet mineral oil is a listed ingredient, as opposed to petroleum or vegetable oil. A friend of mine who had a slick bald head went around selling tiny bottles to barbershops lato shine up bald heads; it too was just repackaged mineral oil which he bought in big containers at drastically lower price.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Actual industrial lubricants derived from vegetable molecules are something else entirely, and hypothetically appropriate, and will not need thinning with anything additional. But none of these that I've personally tested held up for very long.

The situation with food grade/ food safe lubricants (as I've understood it ever since I first encountered them) is that they are usually more expensive and don't last as well - not least because the situations they are used in are usually routinely stripped/ cleaned (or at least I'd hope so) before being relubricated - compared to the lengthier service intervals on an LF camera/ enlarger.

I recall reading somewhere that Jojoba oil was intended as a replacement for the specific properties of the fatty ester that is sperm whale oil.

 

[Luis-F-S]

AFAIK, the 138 has a tapered bellows and a fixed lens turret that is not interchangeable. The 138S has a square bellows and the 3 lens turret (tripla) which is interchangeable with the single lens Unipla board. The 138S has a tan or black knob on the lens state to change the lens board as seen in the photo below. I think those are the main differences. Mine is an SM-183 with the 138S camera, so I'm not that familiar with differences with the chasis.

 

[Lachlan Young]

AFAIK, the 138 has a tapered bellows and a fixed lens turret that is not interchangeable. The 138S has a square bellows and the 3 lens turret (tripla) which is interchangeable with the single lens Unipla board. I think those are the main differences. Mine is an SM-183 with the 138S camera, so I'm not that familiar with differences with the chasis.

This Durst manual, and my own personal experience working with/ maintaining a 138S with tapered bellows and a fixed lens turret suggest that you might be drawing the wrong conclusions. I think the 138 was the model before the foot operated table & with the pre-NEGA 138 carrier.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lachlan - you are correct. Early usage of jojoba oil was marketed as "synthetic sperm whale oil". The point was that it was potentially abundant and didn't involve killing whales. Food grade lubes are their own special niche. But jojoba had other applications too, like to help house siding stains penetrate wood better at one point, but still requiring a lot of petrochemical solvent and driers for that application.

And the picture Luis showed isn't 138-style at all, but a double-column 184-style chassis fitted with a 5x7 stage, and a matching "138" tapered mixing box housing adapting or downsizing the 10X10 colorhead to the 5x7 platform. An early option configuration, I suspect, although the carrier appears to be a later NEGA 138.

There was also another hybrid version, with a thicker double-column 184 lower half supporting an oversized baseboard, but an ordinary single-column 138 upper half. I could have one of those if I had any place to put another big enlarger, or any way to haul the monster in one intact piece, colorhead n' all, up a whole flight of stairs out of a deep commercial basement without anyone getting injured, and nothing getting broken. Nope.

 

[Luis-F-S]

This Durst manual, and my own personal experience working with/ maintaining a 138S with tapered bellows and a fixed lens turret suggest that you might be drawing the wrong conclusions. I think the 138 was the model before the foot operated table & with the pre-NEGA 138 carrier.

My statements are correct. What was it about "I'm not that familiar with differences with the chasis." that you didn't understand? How did this thread degenarate to a discussion about whale oil?

There was the L-139G for point light work (electron microscopy, I think) which was a single post upper with the L-183 base with the 5x7 camera.. The SM-183 or Spec Micro pictured had the "thicker double-column 184 style chasis" for the greatest stability and the 5x7 camera for printing microfilm. It had a 14" arm to raise the head above the height of the L-183 column This allowed for very large enlargements from microfilm. The photo above shows the arm down, thus lowering the head. With the arm up, you get an additional 28" in head height. Those are all the variations as far as I know. If anyone doesn't agree, please post photos or a copy of the manual. I do have a manual for a very early L-138, if I can find it I'll post it.

Some verbage from Durst USA, aka World Images on the 138 & 138S from their enlarger guide below. Nowhere is the foot pedal mentioned.
L-138S
Ver.1 has fixed TRIPLA, three-lens lens turret and Ver. 2 has a removable TRIPLA. When removable the TRIPLA can be replaced with single-lens lens boards and with HOTUBS for short focal length lenses.
V2 has a bellows with larger dimensions than VI, The V1 bellows are funnel shaped, and the V2 bellows are straight. Other than that the two versions are identical.

They offer the L-138 as a wall mount unit only,
The chassis World Images Inc offer for wall mounting is the older 138 chassis. It is basically the same chassis as the later 138S chassis but lacks in design. The design is not as streamlined as the 138S design. Also it does not have as many adjustment facilities for slack and alignment as the later models. Never the less, the enlarger works in the exact same manner and offers the same options and accessories. The camera (bellows unit) on the 138 chassis has a fixed, TRIPLA, lens turret for 3 lenses.

 

[DREW WILEY]

No, Luis, you've got it all wrong. The light source choice did not define 138 versus whatever, but the chassis style itself. The hybrid 138G chassis, with 184 dual lower column and 138 upper single column had nothing to do with point light sources or specialty micro work, but could be potentially used for any application where greater stability was needed. The one I could have does it for sake of a big colorhead, oversized baseboard, and greater cumulative height for sake of larger prints.. But just firm wall mounting will completely stabilize an all-single-column 138 at lesser height. Bellows style and lens mount (turret vs single-hole) were minor option differences which evolved over the decades of these things being produced. It's often hard to tell when a particular combination of features was sold that way from the factory, or jerry-rigged out of separate components by the user afterwards. All kinds of combinations were possible.

What you linked per the now defunct Durst USA options included a lot of things that Jens himself cobbled together, or at least claimed he was capable of doing; and this was not entirely a direct reflection of original factory offerings. Jens bought up all kinds of leftovers, not only from Durst, but even from individuals like me (I should know - he never did pay me !). Eventually, he had over twenty usable enlarger in stock, whether new crated units from Durst itself, still unsold by them after a couple decades, or numerous cobbled tweaks by himself for various applications (some equipped with UV printing heads). When he couldn't come up with enough components, heads, or carriers, he was a highly competent machinist and made his own replacements, and also bought out the parts and rights to the Condit corporation.

But anyone who ordered and prepaid for such components by themselves for self-installation risked getting stiffed. He claimed to have all kinds of things in stock that couldn't even be obtained any longer, and that he couldn't make. So toward the end, he did manage to sell all his complete enlargers. But what he was really after was the more lucrative mandatory service contracts with installation and travel expenses that he'd charge labs all over the world. I visited his actual facility when he was still in operation, spent nearly an entire day discussing Durst details and combing through his parts inventory. He certainly knew his products; too bad his business ethics were so flawed.

If you check out the Durst Museum site (I can't recall the specific link) there are some interesting huge dinosaurs in there, which don't show up on Jen's brochure.

 

[ic-racer]

 

[DREW WILEY]

Fascinating. Kinda like the head of a marmot on the body of a hippo. That beast has little resemblance to either the G138 enlarger depicted earlier or any 138 series support. What you do show is a full 184 chassis (double column full height) with a factory equipped vacuum baseboard (no doubt pin registered), plus Fein Italian-made vacuum, then a sizing adapter up above to accept a 5X7 carrier platform etc, and matching condenser head point light source. It was basically replaced by a very expensive temperamental autofocus unit which uses none of the above support options and requires unique carriers, not shown in Jen's brochure. I know where there's a used one of the latest version for sale; but they're holding out for 75K, set up to do 35mm film, replete with an apo lens (not an ancient Componon), just in case you also want to finance the revival of Kodachrome while you're at it.

 

[ic-racer]

That scan is from a Durst North America (no relation to Durst-Pro) brochure from about 1978. The other enlarger pictured on the page with the SM-183 was the S-45EM. So it seems they offered a 5x7 enlarger setup for 4x5 (S-45EM) and an 8x10 enlarger with a 5x7 head (SM-183) for 'scientific' purposes.

I think the S-45EM are more common, a friend of mine has one. I have never seen the SM-183.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I still have one of those old 138 condenser heads stored away somewhere on a loft, along an odd useless-looking Pavelle colorhead adapted to the Durst 138. I sold the mint condensers to Jens, but never got paid for those either. All my own Durst rigs have been custom modified by myself in some special manner or another. I adapted one of my 138 projects to accept an Aristo high-output 8X10 V54 cold light. Another one has a hotrod of a customized 5X7 colorhead on it. My last project was full restoration of a L184 and 8X10 colorhead to nearly new look and performance. But I've about had it with restorations. I think I might need some restoration or new paint myself at this point in life.