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accozzaglia

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Sorry to parse, but there is a clarification that needs to be pointed out here. Private space that is accessible to the public, such as a mall, is "qausi-public" meaning that in such a place you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. While the owner or management of the mall may set policy regarding actions such as photography, or any other activity for that matter, within its private space, an individual person who is in the quasi-public area can not. If the property owner allows photography, there is nothing that legally prevents one from engaging in the activity, and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy to be had for others who choose to be in that area.

"Quasi-public" is not a distinction made in public/private discourse. In aggregate, we have grown accustomed to the notion of private space masquerading as public, and for this, we have in aggregate (in many places across the world, not just here in Canada or where I used to live in the U.S.) acclimated to the idea that what goes on in private spaces is public. In practice, though, it is illusory, as public space here does not nor cannot as readily exclude populations based on appearance or perceived social classes the way a private space can be sanctioned to do. This is why, for example, finding panhandlers inside a shopping mall or PATH system is inordinately more difficult than, say, on a public sidewalk or square.

With regard to the birthday lunch, the obstacle in question was not*so much of a legal matter, but of a socially appropriate matter. And therein resided the disruptiveness of his bringing out the camera and shooting people with it who had not given him the go-ahead nor, from the other end of the table, saw him make an effort to preface what he was intending to do before doing it. His negotiation and communication skills were lousy, to put it mildly. I find that having both skills are key qualities to possess when photographing people.

[Appended to add: On the matter of public/private spacing being more ambiguous than it used to be, this really has much deeper reverberations in matters of social-cultural conditioning of classing the "public" as undesirable or unneeded, and re-classing the "private" to effect varying levels of "public" — or "quasi-public" — space. Before the arrival of PPPs (public-private partnerships) in the 1980s and moves by BIAs/BIDs (business improvement areas/business improvement districts) to quietly (but attractively) refashion public spaces within their catchment to private spacing — or blurring the line so much that it becomes unclear whether the public space is really all that public — it was a lot easier to draw distinctions between the two. At this point, within the span of a couple of generations of people, we have increasingly experienced the impact of making the private appear as public. I return to the indoor shopping mall — that of Southdale Center in Eagan, MN, 1956-57 — as the beginning of this trend that is now prevalent on a much wider level. These changes affect how and why it is a lot harder now to create public parks or even municipal sporting venues without sponsorships adorning the place. The creation of an urban park like Stanley Park or Central Park simply could not happen today given these changes.]
 
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Dinesh

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I didn't realize preferring the company of gentlemen over cocky bastards made one a misandrist. Oh dearie me..

I'm sure it was a coincidence that you were placed at the end of the table.
 

jd callow

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Additionally this topic was not about private places, except that the document found in the OP stating that the rules change when on private property. The idea here is that, within the USA, you can photograph with very little restraint in public places and that some for whatever reason think that just because you can doesn't mean you should. The former is a fact the latter is meaningless except in the abstract as it lacks the form needed to be codified in a manner that is meaningful to all. In the end some will do what others won't and that all are well advised, except in extreme cases, to work within the guidelines found in the original document. It might be interesting to hear where each of us might draw the line, but instead what we get are people saying that their way is the right way and the other guy needs to grow up, stop being obnoxious and anything less than their way puts civil society at risk.

The ideas promoted here to keep one safe are also pertinent,and say much about the good sense of those posting (e.g. carry a gun).
 
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accozzaglia

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I'm sure it was a coincidence that you were placed at the end of the table.

Uhm, or that I got there a few minutes later than the early crowd, many of whom didn't RSVP. My friend reserved for 12, and we ended up for 18 after she thought less than 10 were actually going to show up. She relied on teh Facebook, and teh Facebook failed her (or rather, the people who used it to RSVP). I RSVP'd in person, since her bf, her and I had dinner a few nights before. When I got there, it was the same time as another couple, and the restaurant added another square table to the line.

Is this even germane? Oh wait. I just ate the troll bait. Ew.
 

JBrunner

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"Quasi-public" is not a distinction made in public/private discourse. In aggregate, we have grown accustomed to the notion of private space masquerading as public, and for this, we have in aggregate (in many places across the world, not just here in Canada or where I used to live in the U.S.) acclimated to the idea that what goes on in private spaces is public. In practice, though, it is illusory, as public space here does not nor cannot as readily exclude populations based on appearance or perceived social classes the way a private space can be sanctioned to do. This is why, for example, finding panhandlers inside a shopping mall or PATH system is inordinately more difficult than, say, on a public sidewalk or square.

With regard to the birthday lunch, the obstacle in question was not*so much of a legal matter, but of a socially appropriate matter. And therein resided the disruptiveness of his bringing out the camera and shooting people with it who had not given him the go-ahead nor, from the other end of the table, saw him make an effort to preface what he was intending to do before doing it. His negotiation and communication skills were lousy, to put it mildly. I find that having both skills are key qualities to possess when photographing people.


I am not speaking to the personality of the man, who is obviously an oaf.


You are incorrect. "Quasi-public" is a distinction made in public/private discourse. The US supreme court has made many rulings specifically concerning quasi-public areas, most of which concern free speech.

I am pointing out that what is allowed is up to the property owner. Within what is legal, the property owner must make exclusions. If not excluded, what is publicly legal is legal in the quasi public area, and even then the property owner may or may not be able to enforce their own wishes, depending on how "public" they have made their private property. I have dealt with this specific issue many times in my job. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a quasi public area. Zero.

Here is the oldest and most germane example:

"...the Court reasoned, “the more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it.”
 
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Deleted.



...wait a minute. Wrong thread. Zoinks.
 
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I'm sure it was a coincidence that you were placed at the end of the table.

I don't think personal attacks are a productive way to keep the discourse going.

"What happened to make you such a misandrist?"
I don't think this is any of your, my or anybody else's business if that is true at all.
If we want to bring forth our perspective and being respected at the same time we should come through as respecting others as well.
I have given up trying to convince anybody, since I have been called egotistical, abnoxious, borderline pedophile, I have been told that my demise by means of violent death could be a joyful event etc...
These are people who are not interested (and in many cases incapable) in conducting an intelligent discussion but are only interested in diffuse their frustration wherever it may come from.
 
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...wait a minute. Wrong thread. Zoinks.

Domenico likes this.

1evzf5.jpg
 

accozzaglia

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You are incorrect. "Quasi-public" is a distinction made in public/private discourse. The US supreme court has made many rulings specifically concerning quasi-public areas, most of which concern free speech.

I do find it intriguing that in this debate, I am defending privacy rights when my own research and passion are in preserving and reclaiming public spacing! :smile:

Although I generally pay less attention to American law now than Canadian jurisprudence, the U.S. Supreme Court have vacillated on this topic depending on which court was deciding the opinions. During the Earl Warren court era, the court largely affirmed public activity within private spaces, as the presence of places like "company towns" and "shopping centers" — both deemed private — were not off-grounds for religious groups and unions to speak, respectively. These had become, per Justice Marshall, the "'functional equivalent' of a sidewalk in a public business district," and such activity was "so historically associated with the exercise of First Amendment rights" Amalgamated Food Employees Union Local 590 vs. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc. (1968) (and Marsh v. Alabama (1946) in re: company towns). In both, yes, the "'Marsh Doctrine' affirmed First Amendment rights over private property rights when an owner opened up his or her property for use by the public" [Cohen, Lizabeth, 1996, 1069]. Then during the Nixon years, the Court backtracked in Lloyd Corporation v. Tanner (1972), ruling that public leafletting in a shopping mall "would be an unwarranted infringement of property rights 'without significantly enhancing the asserted right of free speech'" [ibid.]. The above was clarified in PruneYard v. Robbins (1980), which allowed limited public expressions in private space, but the "First Amendement did not guarantee access to shopping malls" and referred jurisdiction to the state level [ibid, 1070]. While these cases share the common denominator in determining the presence of a public authority (the American constitution) in private spacing, none explicitly addressed it in "quasi-public" terminology.

It's also easy to make a mental jump between "quasi-public" and "public" given the root word, when the former literally means "pseudo-public", "not really public", or "superficially public" — but in every instance, not public. This is why the American court (to say nothing of the Supreme Court of Canada) have found it so difficult to effect a cut-and-dry ruling on private spacing that mimics the public. To intone that "quasi-public" is like public is to chisel away at the meaning of public (and public spacing) and to operate as if not-public places truly are public — whether they seem public, feel public, look public, or even act public. But whatever the case, they are private, not public, full-stop.


I am pointing out that what is allowed is up to the property owner. Within what is legal, the property owner must make exclusions. If not excluded, what is publicly legal is legal in the quasi public area, and even then the property owner may or may not be able to enforce their own wishes, depending on how "public" they have made their private property. I have dealt with this specific issue many times in my job. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a quasi public area. Zero.

(n.b., emphasis mine) I interpret "exclusions" to mean exclusions from an expressly private space under complete control of the property owner. This is why, say, an izakaya might expect a more subdued clientèle than, say, a sport pub, and why the sport pub proprietor makes an exclusion allowing the patrons to be loud and boisterous with no worry about being ejected for doing so. An izakaya owner, meanwhile, expects their private space to be respectfully adhered to — and such loudness would not be permitted.

Personal privacy and private spacing function as two different concepts. They do overlap, but they are not synonymous. The case I introduced into this conversation, that of the birthday lunch, confronts how these two concepts differ. In a public space, one has no reasonable expectation of privacy whatsoever. In a private space, one does have a right to articulate limits of personal privacy. In a most glaring example, an individual entering a washroom or change room at a private shopping mall has an articulated right to expect not to be photographed or videotaped by either the property owner or a random peeping-tom who gets his willies off from watching videos of, say, women's bathing suit areas. Variations on this articulated right apply as well to other private spaces, even when the circumstances are less extreme and as flagrantly violating. In both this and the restaurant example, the individual has a right to arrive to that space with the reasonable expectation that a camera operated by an unknown agent won't be shoved in their face or place them in a situation where having the image taken of them would compromise their personal privacy (or personal dignity). Seeking consent can eliminate this barrier: if the washroom was adorned with a sign saying, "You may be videotaped in our effort to curtail shoplifting" or if an itinerant camera guy waiting inside a private eatery to shoot pictures of people he doesn't know in the slightest informed those people in advance — either verbally or in writing, with*perhaps a sign at the entrance explaining such — then the person is informed enough to make a decision to not enter either space if they feel their personal privacy would be compromised. This, however, is not what the guy in question did, and it amounted to an ambush of people he didn't even know. This is why my friend apologized for his behaviour, even though she didn't need to. Had she known beforehand that he was coming with gear in tow for the purpose of shooting the party, she would have been able to say in her invite send-out that "a photographer friend of mine will be taking pictures!"
 

JBrunner

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Ok, your right. About exactly what, I don't know, nor at this point do I give a rat's ass.

Chow.
 

jamusu

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I do find it intriguing that in this debate, I am defending privacy rights when my own research and passion are in preserving and reclaiming public spacing! :smile:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accozzaglia.

Photography has many different classifications as I am sure you are aware of. If this guy is a photojournalist/documentary photographer then he was in his element considering the fact that he was at a birthday party. I feel that you severely overreacted in this case. Would you tell a wildlife photographer not to take a photograph of a deer without first asking permission?

Jamusu.
 

2F/2F

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yup

Sorry to parse, but there is a clarification that needs to be pointed out here. In the USA at least, private space that is accessible to the public, such as a mall, is termed "qausi-public" meaning that in such a place you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. That is precisely why the property owner has the right to surveillance of your activities on the premise with security cameras. While the owner or management of the mall may set policy regarding actions such as photography, or any other activity for that matter, within its private space, an individual person who is in the quasi-public area can not. If the property owner allows photography, there is nothing that legally prevents someone from engaging in the activity, and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy to be had for others who choose to be in that area. The same goes for a parking lot, amusement park, or any other area that is accessible to the public in general.

OTO, it hasn't been pointed out that one right someone does carry with them at all times in a public place is the right not to be harassed. If someone is impeding your ability to move about freely, generally being a nuisance, and continues to do so after being asked to desist, then you have a case for harassment, which is really the issue being discussed here, and is undefinable outside specific incidence.

Most malls I have worked in as a photographer have restrictions regarding commercial/for-hire photography, but do not ban private individuals from using their cameras. I'm sure there are exceptions both ways.

In the United States, this is correct.

You may photograph in privately owned areas that are open to the public, and thus have no privacy expected. Read the document that the OP posted. It is in there, with shopping malls specifically mentioned.

It is time for many people in this thread to stop assuming that they know what the law is based on how they feel about something, meanings of words, or any other such things beside the law itself and specific court cases. The law is what it is in writing, combined with what the judicial says it is...not what you think it is based on deconstructing it and injecting what you think/feel. If you think/feel it should be a certain way for some reason, then say so. It is good to think about such things; necessary for democracy to work, IMO...but don't state it as fact if it is not a fact.
 
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accozzaglia

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I do find it intriguing that in this debate, I am defending privacy rights when my own research and passion are in preserving and reclaiming public spacing! :smile:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accozzaglia.

Photography has many different classifications as I am sure you are aware of. If this guy is a photojournalist/documentary photographer then he was in his element considering the fact that he was at a birthday party. I feel that you severely overreacted in this case. Would you tell a wildlife photographer not to take a photograph of a deer without first asking permission?

Jamusu.

I am aware, and as outlined, he was a concert photographer by trade. His approach that day was akin to a member of the paparazzi: aggressive, standoffish when confronted (the way a kid does when told to get out of the cookie jar). He was not invited to wear his professional hat that day, and my friend, the host, had not expected him to do that.
 

JBrunner

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What a way to conduct a constructive discourse. Forgive me for responding to you. Or sth.

Lawyer wordsmithing in a compulsive need to be "right" is hardly a constructive discourse. Furthermore, you constantly return to this straw man anecdote, that is entirely irrelevant. There is no law that I am aware of against being an ass. So what exactly is the point? You haven't made one. There's your answer and I am done with you.
 

jamusu

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Then he was in his element as I posted earlier. Also it seems apparent to me that your overreaction had more to do with the fact the he was using a digital camera and not because of what you deemed to be an invasion of privacy.

Jamusu.
 

accozzaglia

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Lawyer wordsmithing in a compulsive need to be "right" is hardly a constructive discourse. Furthermore, you constantly return to this straw man anecdote, that is entirely irrelevant. There is no law that I am aware of against being an ass. So what exactly is the point? You haven't made one. There's your answer and I am done with you.

Rhetorically, has this not been a discourse with some debate? Did you not cite jurisprudence before I replied? And was this thread not on the legalities and ethics of photographing in private and public spaces?

If anything, I'm trying to understand your angle, and in replying, I was presenting my own interpretation. We may or may not see eye to eye, but I'd rather figure out where you're coming from than try to effect a contest out of this. We live in different jurisdictions and our world views are different. That makes neither me nor you any more right or wrong as people, but our own understanding of this subject might look off to one another. That's the spice of life and why having these conversations are good. I hopefully stand to learn something from you, for what it's worth. But dismissiveness works faster to push up walls than to do anything productive.

With that, I will no longer engage you on this topic. Cheers.
 

accozzaglia

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Then he was in his element as I posted earlier. Also it seems apparent to me that your overreaction had more to do with the fact the he was using a digital camera and not because of what you deemed to be an invasion of privacy.

Jamusu.

On the contrary: others at the table were using phone cams and I was not experiencing any issues with them. It had everything to do with his behaviour and the way he was wielding his tool and pointing it at people who felt ambushed by his surprise appearance.
 

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Wielding his tool. Ambushed by his surprise appearance...are you serious? I am serious, are you seriously serious?

Jamusu.
 

JBrunner

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"Quasi-public" is not a distinction made in public/private discourse."

Remember that?

Followed a few posts later by a wikipedia screed of word parsing citing actual legal cases and other verbose minutia concerning the very distinction you dismissed as non-existent, just prior.

You are full of crap, you are making it up as you go along, and I'm calling you on it.
 
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