Does it make sense to buy a film loader for bulk film?

Clarimort · May 11, 2019

Hey friends,

I am considering buying a film loader for 35mm bulk film but I can't find much information about it for some reason.

I am not only thinking about saving money when buying an often used film as a 30m roll but also about the possibiliy to make shorter film rolls (5-10 photos) for testing out cameras and experimenting with development.

I know you would loose film material when making shorter rolls but it just seems more comfortable then taking 10 shots on a normal roll of film and then cutting it off or even wasting a whole roll of film just for testing things out.
I am only using older cameras so the DX Code doesn't matter to me.

Is anyone of you using a film loader? How is it working? Is it easy to use?
How many times can you reuse the film container because I have read that you shouldn't use them more than five times. Is that true? That would mean buying new containers all the time.

Thanks in advance,

C.

AgX · May 11, 2019

It may make sense if you got one that does not scratch your film, is hasslefree and has counters for both, stock and frame number.
The benefit of such device is that you got easy access to your bulk film and can load a definite number of frames (thus e.g. half-full cassette).

If you do not need such, it makes no sense !

Take
-) the box with bulk film
-) a clean glass, porcelain or metal bowl
-) a pair of scissors
-) a strip of adhesive tape

into a dark room.
Improvise if necessary. If window blinds are not really light tight, wait until night. Seal slit under room door.

Before loading have a good look at a industrial cassette and see in which orientation the film is wound on.
You can take that cassette with you to be sure...

Ko.Fe. · May 11, 2019

I'm using same realoadable cassettes since 2012. Dosens of bulks of film went through.
If you load in dark, not so much film lost.

Pentode · May 11, 2019

For the reasons you list, a bulk loader seems like a very good idea for you.

I haven’t counted how many times I’ve used my cassettes but my general policy is: make sure to keep them clean and free of dust, try to keep them from getting too bent up and replace them when the velvet light seals start to look ratty.

As far as loaders go, there are pros and cons to each of the two main types - Lloyds and Watson/Alden types.

Watson/Alden loaders have counters and don’t rely on a felt light trap. The counter mechanism is a little bit flimsy on these, but they usually work okay. The older ones were made of Bakelite and are sturdier than the newer ones.

The Lloyds have no counter and have a felt light trap that must be kept clean to avoid scratching. They’re also smaller and waste a little bit less film.

I’ve never used one of the modern Bobinquick types.

Hope this is helpful!

ic-racer · May 11, 2019

I urgently needed some film last week and my local shop (which I support!) was out of bulk film so I had to buy pre-loaded film. The price is outrageous. Don't know how anyone that does not bulk load can afford to shoot film.

AgX · May 11, 2019

Pentode said:
As far as loaders go, there are pros and cons to each of the two main types - Lloyds and Watson/Alden types.

They are known, but I have never come across any of these two.

Repeatedly I came across the LPL "Dayroll" loader and got all these samples. At first sight the design looks good, but there is a problem with the internal door. Actually a good idea, but there is a design fault. Due to elasticity of the material chances are that the door is not opened over the full film width.

AgX · May 11, 2019

Clarimort said:
...the possibiliy to make shorter film rolls (5-10 photos) for testing out cameras and experimenting with development.

I know you would loose film material when making shorter rolls but it just seems more comfortable then taking 10 shots on a normal roll of film and then cutting it off or even wasting a whole roll of film just for testing things out.

Instead to make the respective saving at bulk loading, you can buy 36exp. rolls. (or load them yourself) and do the saving so to say at processing.
With a partially exposed cassette you mark the number of exposed frames on the cassette. Before processing you put the cassette back into a camera and transport without exposing the film until that number, cut it off still in the camera and gain a short-roll plus that long strip to be processed.
Alternatively you can use a board or such with touchable marks for the respective film length and by this cut only off the exposed part.

Such metering board of course you could also use when bulk-loading without a loader, cleanliness of the board though is important in this case.

mshchem · May 11, 2019

AgX said:
Instead to make the respective saving at bulk loading, you can buy 36exp. rolls. (or load them yourself) and do the saving so to say at processing.
With a partially exposed cassette you mark the number or exposed frames on the cassette. Before processing you put the cassette back into a camera and transport without exposing the film until that number, cut it off still in the camera and gain a short-roll plus that long strip to be processed.
Alternatively you can use a board or such with touchable marks for the respective film length and by this cut only off the exposed part.

+1

KN4SMF · May 11, 2019

I've used a Lloyd's loader for 47 years. Works for me. Nary a problem

donkee · May 11, 2019

When I was hitting estate sales with my ex I ended up with 8 bulk loaders 6 watsons and 2 lloyds style. I picked them up cheap enough so worked great for me. I load my cassettes in a black bag (the darkroom has been stored for about 4 years, but I'll have it back up and better than ever by fall) so I don't waste as much film and usually load 18 exposure rolls unless I need more exposures. So I guess you can tell I am in the pro loader camp.

koraks · May 11, 2019

Since this is posted in the color section: for color, a bulk loader only makes sense for experimenting with ECN2 film, as to the best of my knowledge that is the only color film that comes in uncut lengths.
For b&w, yes it makes sense to get a bulk loader for the reasons/purposes outlined: easy experimenting with short ends and potentially some cost savings in the long run (although the difference in price between bulk film and individual rolls is IMO usually disappointingly small).
I use Watson type loaders and the only times I get scratches if I use it wrong (forget to open the light trap when spooling the film). Otherwise no problems. I don't use the counters, but simply count the number of turns, which is accurate enough for me. And when the film runs out, it runs out. Keep a second bulk roll in stock for when that happens.

MattKing · May 11, 2019

koraks said:
Since this is posted in the color section: for color, a bulk loader only makes sense for experimenting with ECN2 film, as to the best of my knowledge that is the only color film that comes in uncut lengths.

This!

Bill Burk · May 11, 2019

Having a bulk loader encourages you to get to know a particular film. So for that reason it's an excellent idea.

Ian Grant · May 11, 2019

It's far less of an advantage these days. I bought a bulk film loader in the late 1960's and back then the price differential between 30m/100ft of film compared to in cassettes was quite substantial and the savings where very significant. At that time I could also buy Government/Military surplus stock FP3 or HP3 although FP4 and HP4 were the current films. Later I was using fresh FP4 and also Barfen E4 and then E6 slide film, this was re-badged by a UK company but was Fuji 100D and excellent (the film edge markings were Fuji 100D)

The last time I did a comparison the savings weren't worthwhile and since then I've rarely shot 35mm anyway. I never had any problems loading my own but I was very careful to make sure the cassettes were clean and the light traps OK.

These bulk rolls were really designed for the Bulk film backs of the later Leica III series cameras and the Praktina's usually used with a motor-drive, and later Japanese manufacturers like Nikon, Pentax, Canon, offered similar backs (or adapted cameras).

I think the economics shifted when the major users of bulk film backs shifted to digital and sales declined. If you can get bulk film at a good price differential it's worthwhile, and as Bill says it looks you into learning that film choice

Ian

mtjade2007 · May 11, 2019

ic-racer said:
I urgently needed some film last week and my local shop (which I support!) was out of bulk film so I had to buy pre-loaded film. The price is outrageous. Don't know how anyone that does not bulk load can afford to shoot film.

I don't think, in my opinion, your local shop will have bulk (100ft?) films in stock ever again. Those films were mainly for the school portrait cameras such as Camerz. Back then, when those long rolls cameras were popular the long roll films they used could be widely available. Now long roll films are probably no longer available. There were 35 mm, 46 mm and 70 mm long roll films back then. I have some of each of them (expired of course) in my freezer. I am very motivated to take them out to shoot. Have done it before so I owned many loaders (35 mm ones). But, you may still be able to find some expired ones on eBay from people who collected them but have no more desire to use them.

AgX · May 11, 2019

mtjade2007 said:
I don't think, in my opinion, your local shop will have bulk (100ft?) films in stock ever again. Those films were mainly for the school portrait cameras such as Camerz. Back then, when those long rolls cameras were popular the long roll films they used could be widely available.

No such cameras here. The 30m and 17m rolls were used by amateurs who either wanted to save money or be more flexible in cassette size.
I myself started bulkloading after my 4th film already. To save money...
A few years ago I saw bulk film even in a most remote photo store, as even there was at least one regular client for it.

By the way, the only bulk films I ever saw on the shelfs of photo stores were from Ilford.

MattKing · May 11, 2019

Harman appears to still sell a fair volume of 100' bulk loads of the black and white film they manufacture - particularly the budget priced Kentmere films.
And the Kodak black and white films have inched back from incredibly high to merely high prices at the usual internet sources.
I was selling some items at the recent Vancouver used camera show, and had a fair number of enquiries about bulk loaders from people who appear to be students.
But colour film? Not unless you want to deal with remjet and films suitable for ECN rather than C-41 process.

abruzzi · May 11, 2019

To me the biggest benefit, which you mentioned, is short rolls for testing. With new cameras, I shoot a few frames at the top shutter speed to look for dark at the end of the shutter path (where the trailing shutter catches up with the leading shutter) then I take the same shot with as many different versions of the same exposure (1/125 @f16, 1/250 @f11, 1/500 @f8, etc.). While this isn’t perfect, it gives me an idea that the speeds are consistently spaced, if not necessarily accurate.

I have two loaders—a Lloyd’s (the rectangle) and a Watson (the teardrop.) some people prefer the Watson because the film doesn’t drag in anything while loading, but there are two things I hate about it. First is unless I try to load the cassette in the dark, the last two frames on your roll are exposed to light and lost. Second is it is very fiddly to use. With the Lloyd's it is simple (though the crank isn’t permanently attached, so it can be lost), and with a bit of care, I can do it where most of the time the last frame is good. Drawback is the film is pulled through a felt light trap so it has the potential to get scratched.

AgX · May 11, 2019

MattKing said:
But colour film? Not unless you want to deal with remjet and films suitable for ECN rather than C-41 process.

If Ilford can economically offer 30m rolls at lower price per length, Alaris could do so too. IF there was equivalent interest. I mean a photographer doing processing himself is likely more inclined to bulk loading than someone who only gives his films away for processing. But there likely are less photographers doing colour film processing than doing b&w.
So the market is less.

When I looked at Kodak colour film bulk prizes, when they still were on offer, they were higher per length, than as cassette.

Maco even until recently offered colour films in bulk, at lesser price per length.
However these were mostly not middle-of-the road films, thus again having their special clientele (which can be considered negative as well as positive economy-wise..)

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2019

Only if it is cost effective for YOU.

MattKing · May 11, 2019

It costs Kodak more to "confection" bulk rolls than it does to "confection" 18 135-36 rolls, because Kodak has higher efficiencies when it comes to high volumes of individual rolls.
It costs Harman less to "confection" bulk rolls than it does to "confection" 18 135-36 rolls, because Harman has lower efficiencies when it comes to high volumes of individual rolls.
In its heyday, Kodak manufactured over 3 million rolls of film each day, and their "confectioning" systems were sized suitably. The efficiencies that remain don't give much benefit to extremely low volume products like bulk rolls.

Andrew O'Neill · May 11, 2019

I bulk load film for my students. If I shot mainly 35 for myself, that is how I would do it too...

Pentode · May 11, 2019

As the others have pointed out, if the OP is planning to use a bulk loader for color film there is little to no advantage.

For black & white, however, it gives the advantage of choosing roll length (which the OP seeks), gives the option of using movie stock not normally available in cassettes (Eastman 5222, Orwo films, various duplicating and sound recording stocks, lith film, surveillance films....) and it’s economical. I realize the cost savings isn’t as large as it used to be but there’s still a savings and, if you shoot a lot of film, that savings adds up. Shooting something like Kentmere 100 or Fomapan 100 from 100’ rolls works out to be a pretty good deal.

cmacd123 · May 11, 2019

I only use Bulk for B&W. I use an alden 200, BUT I swap the cassettes in the dark to avoid the fog on the end of teh roll that comes from using the bulk loader acording to the users manual. I am finding that the empty cassettes that used to be relatively cheep have gone up in price but down in quality.

for C-41 colour, all the stocks one used to be able to get inexpensively have diapered. so you are currently left with Movie film requiring ECN2 processing, and removal of the REM-JET coating.

besides the ilford and Arista/foma B&W, and the uneconomic Kodak one can sometimes get the ORWO N74 and UN54 B&W movie stocks, the savings with those will depend on if you are set up to deal with 400ft rolls in the dark.

mshchem · May 11, 2019

The only reason to buy 30 meter rolls of 35mm film

Does it make sense to buy a film loader for bulk film?

Clarimort

AgX

Ko.Fe.

Pentode

ic-racer

AgX

AgX

mshchem

KN4SMF

donkee

koraks

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MattKing

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Bill Burk

Ian Grant

mtjade2007

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abruzzi

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Sirius Glass

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Andrew O'Neill

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mshchem

Does it make sense to buy a film loader for bulk film?

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