Do photographers have not only a right but also an ethical obligation to defy police?

[DREW WILEY]

You're also on "Ignore" on the other forum, and you know why. So don't expect my sympathy. It works both ways.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well, I'll not ignore you, Drew. You can certainly post whatever mess-up I made on LFPI here if you like. I never intend to insult but I will state my opinions when I believe they're truly important. I may be wrong but at least I can stand up to the most fighting individuals without fear. I'll also apologize if I go too far or am proven wrong. If I offended you then I'm truly sorry but I believe things like this are far too important to "let the other guy win" just because it's easier. You seem to have strong convictions also and a fighting spirit... I respect that. I can respect you and still think you're very very wrong.

 

[Jim Jones]

. . . I can respect you and still think you're very very wrong.

Wise words. We all should respect the opinions, right or wrong, of others, and avoid discussions based more on personalities than on logic or verifiable facts.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty . . . And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stevens Smith, November 13, 1787 ~

I love it when it's suggested "The Founding Fathers" are irrelevant.

 

[blansky]

Interesting that this country was founded on revolution.

And when people now fight against an entrenched status quo, they are branded unpatriotic, or unAmerican.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I love it when it's suggested "The Founding Fathers" are irrelevant.

How, in any way, did my post quoting Thomas Jefferson suggest our founding fathers are irrelevant?

EDIT: If I misunderstood then I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just tired and should stop posting tonight.

 

[MattKing]

How, in any way, did my post quoting Thomas Jefferson suggests our founding fathers are irrelevant?

I think he was expressing appreciation for your post.

My question is: Would any of those "founding fathers" have agreed that their words were applicable to young black people who did not own land?

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I think he was expressing appreciation for your post.

My question is: Would any of those "founding fathers" have agreed that their words were applicable to young black people who did not own land?

Some, yes. Others, no. That is a sad and embarrassing dichotomy and irony of the birth of our country.

EDIT: One thing of note is that the US Declaration of Independence proclaims "all men are created equal". The US Constitution doesn't use those words. This is why Abraham Lincoln quoted the former, rather than the latter, in his address at Gettysburg.

 

[cowanw]

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty . . . And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stevens Smith, November 13, 1787 ~

Sounds like Jefferson conceived of poorly informed citizens rising up, some being killed to become manure, some being educated to the correctness of the thinking of the authorities, and being pardoned. Everything is then in order again.
Pretty much what happens now, eh?

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Sounds like Jefferson conceived of poorly informed citizens rising up, some being killed to become manure, some being educated to the correctness of the thinking of the authorities, and being pardoned. Everything is then in order again.
Pretty much what happens now, eh?

That entirely depends on who wins the battle. Had we lost the war for independence or the battle of 1812 we'd still be paying taxes to Britain. That's not to say we're any better off one way or the other (read the quote below). Had the south won against the north we might still have slavery. Some of us are content to follow whomever gives us shelter, protection, bread and water no matter their ethical or moral behavior. It's easier that way. Intelligence and knowledge certainly affect our actions but not necessarily in positive ways. What makes a true difference is heart, compassion... a sense of right vs. wrong. Sorry... I know sounds preachy... I don't intend it to.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Would you tell me please, Mr. Howard, why should I trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away? An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as a king can."
~ Benjamin Martin, quote from the movie, "The Patriot" ~

 

[David Lyga]

Interesting that this country was founded on revolution.

And when people now fight against an entrenched status quo, they are branded unpatriotic, or unAmerican.

That's because the ones who won are all done with the pun called 'liberty'.

Now, they would rather use their gun to run their self-imposed place in the sun and keep the true believers of liberty, instead, on the run. - David Lyga

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Too many pf our leaders today are nothing like our founding fathers who, BTW, were not perfect either. BTW, most believe our 'founding fathers' were elderly men. Most were not. The average age of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was 44 and many were 35 or younger.

With nearly everyone carrying cell phones with video capability, if we see an injustice unveiling before our eyes, we have the option of recording it for positive use. Isn't that a wonderful power to have in the palm of our hands?

 

[David Lyga]

Isn't that a wonderful power to have in the palm of our hands?

In the same breath: is that not a shame that we HAVE to revert to using that weapon.

That makes quite a negative and troubling statement as far as the validity of Law Enforcement Oaths are concerned. - David Lyga

 

[BrianShaw]

In the same breath: is that not a shame that we HAVE to revert to using that weapon.

That makes quite a negative and troubling statement as far as the validity of Law Enforcement Oaths are concerned. - David Lyga

What weapon, a digital phone camera? That makes quite a negative and troubling statement as far as the validity of APUG is concerned.

(Have you folks forgotten where you are posting? Politics, not ethics, and now digital photography. SHAME ON YOU.)

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Hey, this is the 'Ethics and Philosophy' forum. I don't know about David but, as long as I'm not abusive or 'naughty', I can shamelessly be as abstract and confusing as I want to be.

There are all kinds of 'weapons'. A sharp tongue or sharp pencil are often as effective as a sharp sword. A video camera can indeed be a very effective weapon fighting for truth.

 

[BrianShaw]

Dude, it is "ethics and philosophy" in an analog photography forum. This thread is, and always has been, fodder for the Soapbox... whatever that is. But it's not my forum so I'm just making an observation and not a judgment and not a suggestion and not a complaint.

 

[jovo]

Dude, it is "ethics and philosophy" in an analog photography forum. This thread is, and always has been, fodder for the Soapbox... whatever that is. But it's not my forum so I'm just making an observation and not a judgment and not a suggestion and not a complaint.

You are welcome to report this thread to the moderators if you feel it's out of line for 'ethics and philosophy'. And it IS your forum in the sense that you are a member and have the right to request anything that will improve it.

 

[blansky]

Here is an interesting article to counter the police claims of, I thought the black guy had a gun, or he might have had a gun, or I feared for my life etc etc, before I shot him 10 times.....

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liber...ns-police-officers-and-managed-not-get-killed

 

[BrianShaw]

Thanks John; I'm aware of that option. I'm not opposed to the discussion, per se, especially since I have been a participant. But there have been many discussions started in "ethics and philosophy" that are clearly trollish attempts to discuss politics and ethics beyond the scope of photography. My comment above is more of a suggestion to David, in particular, to better choose the category he posts this kind of chatter in because it significantly waters down the real intent of APUG's ethics and philosophy area. As I said, just an observation on my part.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Brian, I added a 'smiley' to my post to hopefully reinforce the friendly nature in which it was intended.

Please don't be offended but, I think if this thread was in the wrong forum then a moderator would move it and if inappropriate or if posts become abusive then they'll shut it down.

I often see other members being called trolls (me too sometimes). I think that term is often misunderstood or at least our personal opinions regarding the meaning of the term differ.

 

[BrianShaw]

Nice try, but I really believe, based on history, that you spoke your heart and the smiley is a feeble afterthought.

It's all my fault and I accept responsibility. It's like a car wreck... I keep looking. I shall put two folks on ignore to curb that instinctual behavior and blind my eyes so I don't gawk at car wrecks (or thugs getting beaten) in the future.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Brian, if I in any way insulted you or stepped on your deeply-entrenched moral or ethical codes then I'm sorry. I intended no offense.

Regarding adding the smiley face as an afterthought in post #142: I thought the genuine humor was clear enough. There was no sarcasm intended. Yes, I did speak my heart.

I stand by my opinion that it's our moral and ethical obligation to video document what appears to be abuses of our fellow man. Obviously, it's okay if others disagree.

 

[blansky]

Nice try, but I really believe, based on history, that you spoke your heart and the smiley is a feeble afterthought.

It's all my fault and I accept responsibility. It's like a car wreck... I keep looking. I shall put two folks on ignore to curb that instinctual behavior and blind my eyes so I don't gawk at car wrecks (or thugs getting beaten) in the future.

A lot of us have been around here quite a long time and most threads evolve and move in directions not always in a clear pattern.

I find the discussions interesting and as I've said many times on forums, I consider them to be akin to a bunch of people sitting at a coffee shop BSing about whatever. OF course sometimes it can be more like a bar brawl but that too can be interesting.

Exchanges of ideas are fun. This thread still is in the vein of police abuse and our reaction to it. And the affect that photography and video has had on it.

Since the recent protests and other abuses, most police agencies in the US are moving to body cameras both for police and for civilian protection and most police departments welcome it.

Also the overwhelming response to Ferguson immediately raised the ugly fact that the police had become increasingly militarized. Due to people seeing these recent events things are changing.

 

[BrianShaw]

Well, carry on Blansky... with my blessings (not that they are needed, of course). I may just be having a morning where I'm "too serious" and "too literal"... that happens on occasion.

 

[DREW WILEY]

This is a photo forum. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my opinion. I'm simply pointing out some common sense things. If you point a camera at something or someone, and they happen to being committing a crime, and your photo could potentially become evidence, that
puts you at risk. And there seems to be a lot of naive stereotypes that police are who you need to worry about in such cases. If these looters can be positively identified by photos, it allows them to be convicted in the courts; and this indeed has happened numerous times. Arsons are far more serious. If someone dies in an arson fire here in Calif, it's the death penalty. Do you really think the kinds of people committing these things won't hesitate to bash your head in if you're standing there with a camera? A number of them aren't even mentally stable. Even today there is a distinct threat to the mass transit system that could hypothetically wander into felony territory, or even serious public safety issues. These are not level-headed types. There are other venues for legitimate protests. But in terms of documentation, photos can lie as often as they can tell the truth. This is nothing new. But all this Fauxtoshop technology makes it only worse. The news agencies always want the first scoop, not necessarily a quality story that takes time to properly research. It easily becomes a kangaroo court scenario which incites further violence. Innocent people get hurt, people lose jobs and businesses as neighborhoods collapse into chaos. How would you like the windows to your own house smashed, and all you belongings carted off, or
maybe your house even burned down? Would you classify that as "freedom of speech". I've been an eyewitness to riots where entire
blocks of property were burned down. I've seen bombs go off. This is not cute stuff.