Do photographers have not only a right but also an ethical obligation to defy police?

[BrianShaw]

So, David... a question: are you putting your money where your mouth is? Are you the Batman of Philly who is actually roaming the streets with a camera with the intent of taking pictures of all injustices being delivered by the evil empire? I sure would like to see a few; could you post some? Oh, and do you wear a mask and cape?

 

[David Lyga]

Actually, Brian, this issue has been vetted before here and the Philadelphia Daily News has, on its front page, told people to take pictures. The Police Commissioner, Charles Ramsey, has 're-educated' its police as well. I actually have little fear of police in Philadelphia. That said, when I was living in NYC back in the 70s, I was afraid to even visit Philadelphia because we had, as Mayor, the infamous Frank Rizzo, who may be forever remembered as Philadelphia's fall from grace (to put it mildly). - David Lyga

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE masked heroes wearing capes: We need some of those, don't you think? You know... a few people with big enough cojones to actually try and make a difference for the better? I'll coin a new term right this very minute... "VIGILANTOGRAPHER".

 

[benjiboy]

It's not the job. It is the right. And if no media are there, it will go unrecorded, so the "it's the job of the media" argument is inapplicable in that situation.
I consider it my obligation, to the victim and to society, to record it if I have the means to do so.

I'm just not so naive to believe that me as an ordinary member of the public photographing some policemen beating the hell out of a drunk while "resisting arrest" is going to change the police or the World either in my country or yours.

 

[pdeeh]

It's not at all naive to believe that exposing misuse of power leads to change.
If you mean that a private individual who takes a photo of a wrong and keeps it to themselves ... well of course that won't change anything.
But if they take a photo and also take steps to ensure it is seen, much can be changed - or at least, perhaps trigger a process of change.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'm just not so naive to believe that me as an ordinary member of the public photographing some policemen beating the hell out of a drunk while "resisting arrest" is going to change the police or the World either in my country or yours.

Your wrong, benjiboy... so very very wrong. Good video evidence posted publicly is an extremely powerful thing. Think about this for a moment... few people believed what the Nazis were doing to the Jews until they saw photographs and videos. When those horrific images became public then people knew what had to be done.

Take that video if the situation warrants it and post it. If one turns a blind eye he is just as guilty as those who commit the offense.

 

[cowanw]

Bodycams certainly saved the day here: http://time.com/3667089/albuquerque-police-murder-charge-body-cameras/

One is justified in wondering how may more murders these officers committed while incognito.

My opinion is that photography is VITAL towards maintaining a credible society that is not threatened with police usurping the rights of those not in a position to fight back. If police cannot police themselves, who can? Maybe a camera can.

But more troubling will be the ongoing efforts by police to remove such evidence, or not allow it in the first place to be recorded. A camera is a technical instrument, not a truth (which cannot be voided). Thus, it remains to be seen how much of a commitment towards this new technology will be supported by those placed in a position to really matter.

It is sad that a law enforcment oath is, all too often, but an oath of hypocrisy, and duly backed, confirmed, by sycophants in power. - David Lyga

Good Lord, things must be very bad in the USA.
There are quite a few credible societies that are not "threatened with police usurping the rights of those not in a position to fight back" Nor wondering with the concept of police murdering innocents, incognito.
Perhaps it has to do with the historical nature of the foundations of the state.
Many Americans came to Canada around the time of the Revolutionary War, helping to found Canada on the basis of Peace, Order and Good Government i.e. society based on the group.
The concept of society based on the personal, we are taught, was basic to the United States.
This tread reminded me of that.

 

[benjiboy]

Good Lord, things must be very bad in the USA.
There are quite a few credible societies that are not "threatened with police usurping the rights of those not in a position to fight back" Nor wondering with the concept of police murdering innocents, incognito.
Perhaps it has to do with the historical nature of the foundations of the state.
Many Americans came to Canada around the time of the Revolutionary War, helping to found Canada on the basis of Peace, Order and Good Government i.e. society based on the group.
The concept of society based on the personal, we are taught, was basic to the United States.
This tread reminded me of that.

Americans emigrated to Canada before the war of 1812 primarily because they were offered grants of free land to do so by the government to settle there because the country was so underpopulated.

 

[BrianShaw]

Actually, Brian, this issue has been vetted before here and the Philadelphia Daily News has, on its front page, told people to take pictures. The Police Commissioner, Charles Ramsey, has 're-educated' its police as well. I actually have little fear of police in Philadelphia. That said, when I was living in NYC back in the 70s, I was afraid to even visit Philadelphia because we had, as Mayor, the infamous Frank Rizzo, who may be forever remembered as Philadelphia's fall from grace (to put it mildly). - David Lyga

But that wasn't my question. My question is... are you actually taking pictures or just talking about it? I value academic discussion, but wondering if that is all this (and the related threads) really is.

 

[BrianShaw]

Americans as a matter of fact emigrated to Canada before the war of 1812 primarily because they were offered grants of free land.

That's how my ancestors got their 400 acres in New Brunswick... 200 acres of which is still occupied by the family.

But things aren't really as bad in USA as David and Mike make it seem.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

As Brian states, perhaps some of us have overstated the problems with law enforcement personnel here in the USA. I didn't intend to do that nor do I believe David did. The point is these abuses do happen and if we have the ability to at least record the event then it's our duty as citizens of this country to do so. Turning a blind eye is not the brave nor the moral thing to do. IMO, we do indeed have a moral obligation to try and stop such abuses toward our fellow men.

 

[blansky]

But things aren't really as bad in USA as David and Mike make it seem.

Not if you are white.

The point of all the protest is to try to show/explain that cops constantly harass and embarrass black people and treat them as second class citizens.

White people just don't get it, because it never happens to them.

They don't have to deal with walking, shopping and driving while black. They have no idea what it's like.

Parents of black kids have a lot more to worry about than parents of white kids when the kids go out with their friends at night.

A year ago in sleepy Santa Rosa CA a cop shot and killed a hispanic kid of around 14, for walking to his friends house in broad daylight to return his pellet guy that looked like an AK47. Cop pulled up yelled at him and he turned around and the cop shot him 7 times and killed him. No charges. Cop feared for his life. Yada Yada.

 

[BrianShaw]

There is a lot of truth to that, Blansky. Sometimes for good reason, though. It is a societal ill -- not just the police abuse but the reason why the police need to interact with citizens at all.

 

[blansky]

There is a lot of truth to that, Blansky. Sometimes for good reason, though. It is a societal ill -- not just the police abuse but the reason why the police need to interact with citizens at all.

The irony of the 2 cops killed in NY. They were killed because they were cops. Not for who they were as people.

That's what blacks are angered about. They are treated as dangerous blacks and not who they are as people.

The cops in NY just didn't see the irony of what profiling is.

 

[BrianShaw]

There is a lot of diversity in the black community. It is far more complicated situation than most people think and how it is reported on TV. I must have missed the news that reported proof of why those 2 cops were killed. I recall all sorts of speculation but didn't hear of the suicide note (or the like) that exposes the true intent.

A big part of the problem is people thinking they know what the black community thinks based on a common skin color... or what the outspoken black leaders say. Spin, spin, spin... from multiple sides.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh gosh... cut the political-correctness crap (referring to the thread in general, not any specific post). Or just join the nightly looters and recreational anarchists around here, down the street in Oakland, and watch your business get trashed and robbed under some political pretext. The news always wants some stereotyped scoop, and it's generally pretty distorted. What do crowbars, claw hammers, and baseball bats have to do with legitimate protests? There's only been over twenty of them. They shut down the freeway and even ambulances can't get through to a heart attack victim intimidated by the mob. Maybe time to treat criminals like criminals and stop pretending they have a "right" to terrorize the rest of the community. Guess what utterly destroyed the startup momentum of the arts & gallery community downtown? Who wants to visit a war zone? I know some of these cops they're slandering and trying to provoke. They risk their lives trying to protect people like you and me. Why not go protest the pimps, gangbangers, human traffickers, and drug dealers instead, who kill people every day. Utter hypocrisy!
kills dozens of

 

[lxdude]

I'm just not so naive to believe that me as an ordinary member of the public photographing some policemen beating the hell out of a drunk while "resisting arrest" is going to change the police or the World either in my country or yours.

It did with Rodney King. Yes, the cops were acquitted, but it brought the subject to the fore, and the incident has never been forgotten. It did make a difference.

 

[BrianShaw]

Rodney King wasn't an innocent bystander getting beat up for no reason at all. His behavior at the time of the incident and throughout his subsequent lifetime proved him to not be a saint. There was a lot of shared responsibility on his side.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Rodney King wasn't an innocent bystander getting beat up for no reason at all. His behavior at the time of the incident and throughout his subsequent lifetime proved him to not be a saint. There was a lot of shared responsibility on his side.

Saint or sinner, nobody deserves that kind of beat-down by a mob of policemen.

 

[BrianShaw]

Saint or sinner, nobody deserves that kind of beat-down by a mob of policemen.

No doubt, but to bring the discussion back to photography... its too bad that it was electronic video and not analog photography that contributed to righting that wrong.

 

[blansky]

It did with Rodney King. Yes, the cops were acquitted, but it brought the subject to the fore, and the incident has never been forgotten. It did make a difference.

I believe a couple of the cops were retried in Federal Court and convicted.

 

[lxdude]

White people just don't get it, because it never happens to them.

Some of us do. I have had employees and co-workers who have had to deal with driving while black/brown, etc. Some guys were late to work because of it. These were ordinary guys in ordinary cars, minding their own business.
And I have experienced it myself, though I am white. I have been assumed to be a drug customer because I was a white man in certain areas. I have been detained and searched for over an hour because they did not believe that I had legititmate business in the area (like visiting a supplier or picking up an employee whose car broke down).
When I was a long-haired teenager in the early 70's in a very closed little town here in southern California with little racial diversity (almost 100% white, 0% black), I was always getting stopped while walking down the street and questioned, made to empty my pockets, etc. That despite the fact that my dad owned a business in town and my mom had worked for the city, and a detective on the force had been one of my dad's employees in the past. A large turnover on the force meant that there was always some new cop out to hassle a kid whose long hair clearly indicated I was some kind of threat to public order.

 

[blansky]

Oh gosh... cut the political-correctness crap (referring to the thread in general, not any specific post). Or just join the nightly looters and recreational anarchists around here, down the street in Oakland, and watch your business get trashed and robbed under some political pretext. The news always wants some stereotyped scoop, and it's generally pretty distorted. What do crowbars, claw hammers, and baseball bats have to do with legitimate protests? There's only been over twenty of them. They shut down the freeway and even ambulances can't get through to a heart attack victim intimidated by the mob. Maybe time to treat criminals like criminals and stop pretending they have a "right" to terrorize the rest of the community. Guess what utterly destroyed the startup momentum of the arts & gallery community downtown? Who wants to visit a war zone? I know some of these cops they're slandering and trying to provoke. They risk their lives trying to protect people like you and me. Why not go protest the pimps, gangbangers, human traffickers, and drug dealers instead, who kill people every day. Utter hypocrisy!
kills dozens of

Protest always attract a few assholes. These same jerks are even present after sporting event riots.

BUT without the protest, nothing would be changed. Politicians will only act in the public good when the public rise up. The rest of the time they cowtow to their corporate masters.

There have also been incidents of "false flag" events when the cops dress up as protesters to start trouble and try to quash the momentum of the protest in the media.

Protest is a legal and necessary form of political action in a free society.

 

[BrianShaw]

a few????? You must not be in LA, or Oakland.

 

[blansky]

No doubt, but to bring the discussion back to photography... its too bad that it was electronic video and not analog photography that contributed to righting that wrong.

Analog photography has it's place but video is usually a far better medium for memorializing this type of thing.

That being said, still shots from the video of cops in a circle standing over him with their batons raining down on him is pretty powerful.

But the cops could argue that they never hit him.

A video show they did, over and over and over.