Dip-and-Dunk for Roll Films in Reels

[Tom-Thomas]

Having to do it in total darkness doesn't bother me, but besides that, Is there any known problems or concerns to develop roll films in reels using the dip-and-dunk method in open tanks (instead of the usual inversion method using day-light tanks)?

 

[John Wiegerink]

Having to do it in total darkness doesn't bother me, but besides that, Is there any known problems or concerns to develop roll films in reels using the dip-and-dunk method in open tanks (instead of the usual inversion method using day-light tanks)?

If you get things all setup properly beforehand you might even have less problems with the dip and dunk method. That is if you like the darkness, and you said you didn't mind it. Also, if you use tanks like the old Kodak hard rubber tanks or similar you could go to using replenished type developers (HC-110 - Xtol) and have the best of both worlds. All you have to do is replenish with a small amount of developer and then cover the tank properly. You're then already for next time. Say, "Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again.............................JohnW

 

[mshchem]

I have Arkay and Nikor racks that fit standard SS tanks. Hold 30 35mm reels (6 stacks of 5 reels) I think 18 120 reels. You can use open deep Nikor single stack tanks. These were designed for use open in the dark.

I've never used my big 3 1/2 gallon rig. I've got print baskets that you can develop a dozen, or more 8x10s at a time. You need a lot of volume.

 

[Tom-Thomas]

If you get things all setup properly beforehand you might even have less problems with the dip and dunk method. That is if you like the darkness, and you said you didn't mind it. Also, if you use tanks like the old Kodak hard rubber tanks or similar you could go to using replenished type developers (HC-110 - Xtol) and have the best of both worlds. All you have to do is replenish with a small amount of developer and then cover the tank properly. You're then already for next time. Say, "Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again.............................JohnW

Hi John, thank you for the reply.

I haven't had the chance to try it out yet. But as I am getting older and older, hands and fingers aren't as agile as before; it's getting more difficult to use the inversion method when I use a large tank to develop many rolls together. With the D-n-D method, I would have all the tanks filled with chemicals and lined up already and so I just move from tank to tanks with relative ease.

My main concern is evenness in development. Do you have experience with this?

 

[Tom-Thomas]

I have Arkay and Nikor racks that fit standard SS tanks. Hold 30 35mm reels (6 stacks of 5 reels) I think 18 120 reels.

Oh, I don't need that big of a rig. I don't process that many rolls at once. The main benefit of such a big rig is, I guess, it saves time. But time isn't really a concern for me, dexterity is. See my post above.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Hi John, thank you for the reply.

I haven't had the chance to try it out yet. But as I grow older and older, hands and fingers aren't as agile as before; it's getting more difficult to use the inversion method when I use a large tank to develop many rolls together. With the D-n-D method, I would have all the tanks filled with chemicals and lined up already and so I just moved fro tank to tanks with relative ease.

My main concern is evenness in development. Do you have experience with this?

Yes, that's how you do it. most folks who still dip and dunk use a piece of stainless steel wire shaped to from a "T" and set the reels on that. Agitation is just a matter of slowly lifting and lowering the reel in the tanks solution. Never lift higher than the liquid level in the tank itself. A little slip once in a while won't kill the roll, but I'd use a latex gloved hand to keep a figure near the upper liquid level just in case. I'm 72 and I really know what you're talking about as to things not operating the same as they did a few years back. I have some Ethol UFG film developer and replenisher that might just go in some spare tanks I got. Hmmm! JohnW

 

[cjbecker]

I’ve been doing dip and dunk for all film for the last few months. It all started with doing 4x5 in yankee tanks on hangers. I started to leave my developer (xtol-r) and fixer in the tanks with floating lids, and just for the ease of of setup, I started developing all my roll film the same way. I do my agitation identical too 4x5. I fully lift the film out of the developer and tilt 45 degrees, lower into developer, lift back out and tilt 45 degrees the other way, lower into developer and repeat once every min. I assumed if it worked for 4x5 it would work with rollfilm. I use a gralab timer on the wall for timing, never worried about the glow.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Is there any known problems or concerns to develop roll films in reels using the dip-and-dunk method in open tanks

My main concern is evenness in development. Do you have experience with this?

Surging is a known problem, generally more with 135 on the traditional size stainless reels in deep tanks.

 

[George Collier]

I tried a D&D approach to 120 film in a small Kodak rubber tank, to combat surge, bit it seemed worse. Tri-x and Rodinal.
In fact I tried many different agitation schemes with different developers and films, especially 120 and almost never got a roll without it. I went back and forth with Don Cardwell (some of you may remember him) with some of his suggestions and never defeated it - although I got better at burning in techniques when printing (or scanning).
Funny thing was, I don't remember having nearly the same amount of it in the early 70's. Maybe my standards have changed.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Funny thing was, I don't remember having nearly the same amount of it in the early 70's.

It was about this point in time that Robert Adams seems to have given up on tanks/ reels & had long troughs fabricated for (effectively) tray processing 135/120.

If you're not going to go to this obsessive level, the best tank/ reel combination currently seems to be the Paterson ones.

 

[mshchem]

I have idiopathic neuropathy in my hands and feet. I use IR goggles to load reels, film holders etc. I couldn't load 120 film onto a Jobo reel without my goggles.
Nothing wrong with open tanks, easy and cheap. I've got enough old Paterson tanks I could set up 3 tanks. Just add a lift rod and you will be set.

 

[Tom-Thomas]

Surging is a known problem, generally more with 135 on the traditional size stainless reels in deep tanks.

I tried a D&D approach to 120 film in a small Kodak rubber tank, to combat surge, bit it seemed worse. Tri-x and Rodinal.
In fact I tried many different agitation schemes with different developers and films, especially 120 and almost never got a roll without it. I went back and forth with Don Cardwell (some of you may remember him) with some of his suggestions and never defeated it - although I got better at burning in techniques when printing (or scanning).
Funny thing was, I don't remember having nearly the same amount of it in the early 70's. Maybe my standards have changed.

I wonder would surge marks be avoided if you lift and drop the reels slowly.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I wonder would surge marks be avoided if you lift and drop the reels slowly.

Now you're thinking! It's all in how you agitate or don't agitate. I have dip & dunked on reels before and never had a problem with surge patterns. I think it has to do with how you dip & dunk and possibly it's safer with certain developers over others. All you really want to do is raise and lower a small amount since the goal is to just introduce the emulsion to newer, more active (fresher) developer. That only requires a small amount of movement. Oh, and you can get surge patterns in a Nikkor tank also. Again, your style is what will save you or break you. I'd just do it with a few non-important practice rolls to see what you think. Good luck! JohnW

 

[foc]

I wonder would surge marks be avoided if you lift and drop the reels slowly.

Yes. Gently does it, is the key. The same with agitation.
I processed B&W, 120 and 35mm, in a basket system, in a replenished hand line (commercially) many years ago and never had a problem with surge marks. In fact never had any problems, even when we had to switch from Kodak D76 to Ilford PQ universal, due to supply problems at the time (late 1970s - early 1980s)

 

[George Collier]

Slow and fast inversions, spiral vs straight inversions, etc were all part of the many things I tried. I also use a section of a film plastic can, length cut just to the remaining space between the top of the reel and the inside surface of the lid to keep the reels from moving around. I've also done many rolls without these spacers, seems slightly less surge with them. Tried pre-filling the tank and dropping in the reels, and vice versa, with and without presoak.
Reels are either Nikkor (original, both 35 and 120) and Hewes for some 120. I've had the Nikkor reels since the late 60's, they've always been my favorite, once if found the best technique to load them. The tanks are Kinderman - I like the flexible lid.
I even got surge with Trix and Rodinal using a reel (120) in an open Kodak 4x5 rubber tank, just lifting and moving every minute by hand - lights off. Still there.
I have considered the long trays mentioned re Robert Adams.
One additional note - I never seemed to notice much of surge effects when printing, but they are really evident when scanning (old negs), which I find interesting. They are much easier to combat in PShop, though.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Reels are either Nikkor (original, both 35 and 120) and Hewes for some 120. I've had the Nikkor reels since the late 60's, they've always been my favorite, once if found the best technique to load them. The tanks are Kinderman - I like the flexible lid.
I even got surge with Trix and Rodinal using a reel (120) in an open Kodak 4x5 rubber tank, just lifting and moving every minute by hand - lights off. Still there.

I have a suspicion that the section shape of the spiral may play a role here. The stainless reels use quite a thick round section compared to the very thin hard edged shape in Paterson reels (Jobo 15xx and 25xx fall somewhere in the middle). I actually have a couple of deep tank cages that seem to have been built to handle Paterson Super System 4 reels - which I should probably test at some point...