Dimensions of sheet film: Is 5x7 film actually smaller than 5x7?

dcy

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Please bear with me. I don't shoot large format and I am not going to buy a pack of film just to measure its dimensions. I figured that people in this forum would know the answer to my question:

I have a DIY pinhole camera that I looks like a box and takes 5x7 paper. I had the idea of buying 5x7 sheet film holders and adapting the camera to use them. I ordered a pair of vintage film holders on eBay and I am sad to report that the paper doesn't fit. The space in the film holder is too small for 5x7 paper. After a bit of searching, I found a comment in a forum that said that sheet film is actually slightly smaller than their nominal size because sheet film was made to fit inside a kind of adapter for glass plate holders called a "septum".

Did I get the story more or less right?

If so, my next question is: Why is it that the ortho litho film that I have is exactly 5x7 and not this supposedly smaller size of sheet film? I imagine that they must have a different history that somehow exempts them the shrunken nature of their panchromatic brethren.

Finally, does this mean that anyone who uses paper or ortho litho film in a large format camera must use a paper trimmer to cut them down to size?
 

Rick A

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Yes, large format film (all sizes) is smaller than the listed size by 1/10 of an inch in two directions. This started back when holders were used for glass or tin sheets, which were dimension. Then when film came around they used a film sheath to hold film in the plate holders. Film manufacturers continue to make film in this reduced size. You can use 13x18cm film holders for 5x7 paper without trimming it down, 5x7 film also fits though a bit loose.
 

djdister

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Yes, lithography sheet film has a very different history (and purpose) in the graphic arts world. Litho film was not designed to fit into septums or film holders, but rather to be held in place by a vacuum frame or contact frame.
 

MattKing

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djdister said:
Yes, lithography sheet film has a very different history (and purpose) in the graphic arts world. Litho film was not designed to fit into septums or film holders, but rather to be held in place by a vacuum frame or contact frame.
Click to expand...

Lithography film was designed to fit into some film holders at the time of exposure, but those film holders weren't the type designed to fit into portable cameras.
They were designed to fit into the big process cameras you would find taking up a room at your local graphic arts shop.
But yes, many/most of those cameras used a vacuum frame instead.
Here is an example of a fairly small version of one of those cameras:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/22x28-enlarger-from-lithographic-process-camera.205233/

The one I worked with was about 2-3 times that size.
 

abruzzi

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Why its setup that way I don't know, but you should see something like this in the item description of Ortho Litho:



that screenshot is from Freestyle. B&H isn't as helpful:

 

isaac7

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Arista sells Ortho film made for both 4x5 and 5x7 regular film holders. I seem to recall they notch those as well but I could be wrong about that.

Film > Black and White Film > Ortho Litho

Orthochromatic Lithography Film
www.freestylephoto.com
 

isaac7

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dcy said:
Thanks! I just ordered a pack.
Click to expand...

I didn't link the particular SKU, hope you scrolled down far enough to see the ones for film holders Please let us know if it is notched.
 
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dcy

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isaac7 said:
I didn't link the particular SKU, hope you scrolled down far enough to see the ones for film holders Please let us know if it is notched.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I got it from B&H and I got specifically the one that says "4.9x6.9 ... For 5 x 7" Film Holders". The label recommended LegacyPro Select-Soft developer for continuous tone, so I grabbed that too.

I will let you know if it is notched.
 

isaac7

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dcy said:
Yeah. I got it from B&H and I got specifically the one that says "4.9x6.9 ... For 5 x 7" Film Holders". The label recommended LegacyPro Select-Soft developer for continuous tone, so I grabbed that too.

I will let you know if it is notched.
Click to expand...

Might want to check out this thread for developer options as well.

Adventures with Arista Ortho Litho

I have a thread (or few) discussing my attempts to use Arista Ortho Litho for normal photography. I want to pretty much get that all into exactly one thread that directly discusses this insane film. Last thread was here...
www.photrio.com
 
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dcy

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Thanks! That's really informative. I have the ingredients to make the "D-23LC" custom developer that she suggested. I'm surprised she didn't try LegacyPro Select-Soft, given that it's the developer that Arista recommends for this film.
 

abruzzi

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If my memory is correct Ortho Litho cuts the corner with just a 45° cut, and its at the very corner. Also, since its not red sensitive, you can load holders in a dark room. and see the sides of the sheet.
 

MCB18

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Yeah sheet film is about 2mm smaller on each dimension. 4x5 is actually 99x125mm as opposed to 101x127mm, and 5x7 (as you found out) is 125x176mm as opposed to 127x178mm. I have to account for this when I cut sheets to sell. I think I have a scrap piece of 4x5 film I might be able to demonstrate that with.
 
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dcy

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abruzzi said:
If my memory is correct Ortho Litho cuts the corner with just a 45° cut, and its at the very corner. Also, since its not red sensitive, you can load holders in a dark room. and see the sides of the sheet.
Click to expand...

The 5x7 ortho litho films from Arista and Inkpress are not cut at the corners. But as you said, you can load them under a safe red light.
 

abruzzi

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dcy said:
The 5x7 ortho litho films from Arista and Inkpress are not cut at the corners. But as you said, you can load them under a safe red light.
Click to expand...

hmm, odd, after posting I checked the box of "4x5" (i.e. 3.9x4.9) and it is cut on the corner, so I guess they stopped that.
 

isaac7

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dcy said:
Thanks! That's really informative. I have the ingredients to make the "D-23LC" custom developer that she suggested. I'm surprised she didn't try LegacyPro Select-Soft, given that it's the developer that Arista recommends for this film.
Click to expand...

They did mention that the low contrast developers they tried also resulted in really slow effective speeds. Looks like both d-76 and various high dilution paper developers are what a lot of people end up using.
 
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dcy

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abruzzi said:
hmm, odd, after posting I checked the box of "4x5" (i.e. 3.9x4.9) and it is cut on the corner, so I guess they stopped that.
Click to expand...

I have been waiting all weekend to respond to this. My new 4.9x6.9 film just arrived, and I can now confirm that *that* one is indeed cut on the corner, yet, my 5x7 film definitely is not. This must be a difference between film that is intended for film holders and film that is not.
 

isaac7

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Glad to hear that. Makes it possible to load the holders in a dark bag. Would love to hear how that developer works for you.
 

abruzzi

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Sounds likely. Wait until you start shooting 8x10 X-ray film. The Fuji HR-U has no notch because it is double sided so it doesn't matter the orientation.

At one point I experimented with these kind of low cost films, but I gradually got used to the per-sheet cost of 4x5 and 5x7 pictorial film, and I prefer the simplicity of them compared to trying to get usable images from lithography or x-ray film.

I'll be taking my Rittreck 5x7 up north this weekend with Delta 100 and E100. The E100 was $600 for 50 sheets I believe, so its not cheap, but the Delta 100 was actually pretty inexpensive ($300 for 100 sheets.) But 8x10 X-ray film is down around 60-70 cents a sheet.
 
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