Digital/Analogue Full Frame Hybrid

[Aran]

Hi guys, I am a part time camera repair/refurbisher (mainly 35mm film) and also a product designer. I have just been set the brief by the company to design something modular and I have always wanted a 35mm digital/analogue hybrid (full-frame/35mm) that works by having a modular back that would allow the removal/attachment of either 35mm film or a digital sensor, so that I have the option of shooting digital or changing from black and white film to colour, mid roll. I can't seem to find anything that does this for 35mm with a decent sensor module so wondered if it is something that I should look into designing? I'm trying to gauge whether or not anyone else would be interested in a camera which has this function and is so how much you'd be willing to spend? Any ideas or drawbacks that you may spot, let me know!

Thanks for your help!

 

[Lee Rust]

This is an interesting concept! Many people shoot both analog & digital, and there's a real need for new film cameras. My suggestion would be to keep it simple, compact as possible, cheaper than a Leica and maybe use M lenses.

 

[Aran]

Thanks so much for the response! That's reassuring to hear you referencing Leica's as I have been debating for a while whether or not to base it on a range-finder or an SLR and wanted to go for a range-finder. I certainly want to keep it simple so that even the digital module will function similar to an old film camera.

 

[mmerig]

Your idea sounds interesting to me, but consider that I do not own a digital camera, as I would not use it much and the last thing I need is another camera that I don't use much.
But if you could come up with a back that fits on older Nikons (like the F3, FM, etc.) that would approximate the Nikon Df for say $500, and there are hundreds of people like me, you/they might have a viable project.
Some potential problems would be sourcing a digital back (but maybe that is not your problem), and getting it to work with a film camera. My guess is that even if the backs swapped out easily, mating the meter to the sensor could be tricky. Perhaps I am too pessimistic, but making it so that it is easily swapped in the field could be a daunting task, and add a lot of cost. if swapping is not easy, for many people, it could be more convenient to just have a digital camera.

Pie-in-the sky would be a back that could be swapped across brands. I mention Nikon because they sort of did it with their Df.

 

[Aran]

That's very insightful, I was considering creating a digital back for existing analogue cameras. My fear was that as you said the swapping would be quite difficult in the field which was why I thought it may be easier to start from scratch meaning I can ensure I develop a mechanism to seal the film back before removing so as not to expose the film. It might be possible to replace the door of the old cameras with a door that could accommodate both though, I'll look into it!

 

[locutus]

Would this really be any more robust and practical then just having a 2 bodies with you? A film and a digital one?

This idea seems to come up for about 20 years and never seems to go somewhere.

....


Leica did do the DMR, but thats definitely not something you want to swap out on a regular basis. It was also pretty horrible, but i'll take one can do better.

 

[faberryman]

The is a company called Reflex that tried this, raised a bunch of money on Kickstarter, and then, when actually penciling in how much it would cost, realized nobody would be willing to buy it.

 

[Pieter12]

There is such a camera, called a Hasselblad. It uses both film and digital backs.

 

[Aran]

This idea seems to come up for about 20 years and never seems to go somewhere.

It is very true that the idea keeps popping up and going away, my thinking was that with the rise of film in recent years there may be a market for it, but this is something I will certainly have to explore extensively.

 

[Aran]

The is a company called Reflex that tried this, raised a bunch of money on Kickstarter, and then, when actually penciling in how much it would cost, realized nobody would be willing to buy it.

Thanks for pointing this out, I'd never hear of it before I'll look into them!

 

[Aran]

There is such a camera, called a Hasselblad. It uses both film and digital backs.

Yeah the Hasselblad was my initial inspiration, I just thought it was a shame that it was so inaccessible for the majority of the community due to the price point. That's why I've been looking at using a full frame sensor which would be drastically cheaper than a medium format sensor. Hopefully one day I can afford a Hasselblad!

 

[4season]

I've already owned a Kodak DCS200, which was a stock Nikon 8008S body with Kodak's digital back attached. It worked alright for it's time, but no way I'd have wanted to remove the back while out in the field: Too much potential for dust and damage. Much easier just to carry an additional film body.

 

[Aran]

I've already owned a Kodak DCS200, which was a stock Nikon 8008S body

That's really interesting, I've never seen this either before - it's useful what you said about dust too, so if this is to happen I'll look at a mechanism to close the body whilst swapping backs and see if it's feasible. Thanks!

 

[locutus]

If you want to use a full size sensor, how are you going to get around the fact that the chip package is larger then the film gate?

 

[Aran]

If you want to use a full size sensor, how are you going to get around the fact that the chip package is larger then the film gate?

Thanks for the comment, sounds quite important - do you mind me asking what you mean by the chip package? Are you referring to the PCB attached to the sensor itself or the PCB that hold the micro controller that controls the camera? Or am I totally misunderstanding?

 

[Aran]

If you want to use a full size sensor, how are you going to get around the fact that the chip package is larger then the film gate?

My understanding, although I may be wrong is that because the sensor and surrounding chip package it is mounted on are flush that the sensor would be able to be placed in the same area as the film without interfering with the film gate. Let me know if I'm missing something though!

 

[removed account4]

i was wondering how long into the 2020s it was going to be before someone designed something like this.
i think while a dedicated body and film and sensor back would be useful, what would be even better is if you
were able to just develop a sensor that slipped into a regular 35mm camera and the canister is charged and sends a wifi signal to whatever, maybe a separate memory pod. you only have to design the film canister/sensor and it can be used with any working 35mm body whether it is a leica type 1 or the latest nikon film body. AND when you get adventurous you can do the same thing for 120 and a LF film back.
no need to redesign the wheel just put new tires on the existing rims. and after this is all done, people who have their vintage lenses and sweet look they like with their exotic cameras can get the same exoitic look with their files...
not sure how much i'd pay, i know i can buy a disposible digital camera at my local drug store for 20bucks...

 

[Oren Grad]

https://www.diyphotography.net/pseu...-failed-bringing-digital-sensors-35mm-bodies/

https://imback.eu/home/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Im_Back_official_retail_prices_2019_small.pdf

 

[removed account4]

https://www.diyphotography.net/pseu...-failed-bringing-digital-sensors-35mm-bodies/

great minds think alike
( had no idea this was done! )

 

[Kodachromeguy]

The latest 35mm camera of which I am aware that could accept film backs was the Rollei 3001 / 3003 camera.The backs were rectangle boxes, like a small version of the Hasselblad. The Rollei was complex, very expensive, and did not sell well in the USA market. It ended before the digital era. The complexity and cost give you some hints on what your project will entail.

The Leica R8 and R9 could accept a digital back. Superb optically but staggeringly expensive. It was a short-lived production. Are any of these backs still functioning?

 

[Lee Rust]

As with the Hasselblad, you would need dark slides to shield the film and/or sensor whenever a module was removed.

The concept of a 'digital film' cassette that simply slips into an existing 35mm film camera has always been a seductive idea, but most of the proposed designs have never gotten beyond vaporware. The "I'm Back" device actually seems to be in production, but I think it looks pretty awkward and the digital image is derived from a low-res ground-glass projection at the film plane. Other problems include effective communication between the film body and digital imager, as well as the impracticality of switching to or from digital in the middle of a roll.

Building a rangefinder would be difficult, and it's a big reason Leicas are so expensive. You might consider a twin-lens reflex approach. The form factor would be much simpler, with the viewfinder box stacked on top of either imaging box, behind a focussing lens board and modular focal-plane shutter. This might make interchangeable lenses difficult because the finder and taking lenses would have to be paired and exchanged together, or there were a selection of alternate frame lines visible in the finder. Personally, I think a single focal length of moderate wide-angle view would be fine. Offer a hand-held light meter with every camera purchase and you could be in business. Every effective design is a compromise.

 

[Kino]

I will add my voice to the "Seems like a great idea at first..." crowd.

The cine camera manufacturer Aaton began developing their 35mm Penelope camera with an optional "Digital Magazine". This magazine could snap on and off the normal film body, placing a sensor in the film gate, but as I understand the concept died due to a number of factors, some financial, but most due to the impracticality.

In the end, they settled on twinning the Penelope into a separate film and digital model.

Currently, you can pick up a DSLR body of reasonable resolution for peanuts, so it makes little sense (other than for bragging rights or to be unique) to pay for a system that could prove problematic for much more than the cost of a used DSLR body.

Now, I am going under the assumption that you are talking about a digital back that would, in theory, produce the highest quality image possible. That might be a really bad target to shoot for; maybe a lower end, "lomography" or "Fisher Price" style back, where imperfections and problems are tolerated and even expected, could be a viable product. Something that could pair with Bluetooth to the user's cell phone and download instantly, for instance.

You could revisit how the 35mm Polaroid backs that used thin fiber optic light pipes transferred the image from the 35mm film plane to the Polaroid film plane, but swap out a digital sensor there. The back is large enough to hold the sensor, memory card and a battery (with some careful ergonomic adjustments!).

Anyway, I think Lo-Fi might work, but Hi-Fi would be an endless money pit of development costs and frustration, but that's just my opinion...

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Another development idea: how about a practical and easy back to use Fuji instant film on a Hasselblad, Mamiya, or Bronica? I have seen kickstarter proposals but no solid unit yet (but please tell me if one exists).

 

[Lee Rust]

Yes, the Fuji Instax films are practically begging for adaptors to all sorts of nice cameras! I can't understand why Fujifilm hasn't done this already.

 

[Oren Grad]

Another development idea: how about a practical and easy back to use Fuji instant film on a Hasselblad, Mamiya, or Bronica? I have seen kickstarter proposals but no solid unit yet (but please tell me if one exists).

Waiting for the second production run of this RB67 back:

https://www.facebook.com/CoyoteCameraWorks/

http://coyotecameraworks.com/