Different shutter, different Flange->Aperture distance?

[Dr Croubie]

Hi all, so here's what happened.
I had a Super Angulon 90/8 (Technika-marked), in a nice Compur Electronic 1 shutter, until I stabbed a screwdriver through the blades. I've been trying to find a new Compur Electronic 1, but they're few and far between and expensive when they appear (like $400 or fleabay BIN, but with a lens mounted).

So in the meantime I've bought a few different shutters, but it doesn't re-mount, the rear element pushes so far into the body that the aperture won't close in front of the glass, it gets stuck around.
I've done some measuring (all +/- 0.1mm until I get a better setup), and on the Compur Electronic 1 shutter, I get 8.8mm flange-to-aperture. On a Compur 1 I get 7.8mm. On a Prontor Press 1 I get 7.8mm. On all of these the front-to-rear flanges are 20.0mm (this may be +/- 0.5mm as it's trickier to measure).

Now, the lens elements themselves look like they're #0 sized, but they're in adapters to fit them into #1. Measuring the rear element, I get 8.4mm from flange* to edge-of-glass, hence the fouling.
(*flange of the #1 adapter fitted on the elements)

So first question, I'm presuming the 20mm flange-to-flange is fixed, but do any other shutter brands/types vary the flange-to-aperture distance?
I can easily insert a 0.5mm shim in the back to stop the rear element fouling the aperture, but then I'm increasing the flange-flange distance so that will probably bork the sharpness. I don't think shaving the front to match will work either, so that option is probably out.
Also, as these are technically #0-sized elements, would they fit a #0 sized shutter without fouling? I don't have one lying around (all I have are #1 plus one #00) to measure. If someone has one to measure, is the rear flange-to-aperture distance more or less on a #0?

 

[Dr Croubie]

Also, as these are technically #0-sized elements, would they fit a #0 sized shutter without fouling? I don't have one lying around (all I have are #1 plus one #00) to measure. If someone has one to measure, is the rear flange-to-aperture distance more or less on a #0?

So I've just gotten home and measured 8.2mm from the #0 flange to element of the rear cell, ie without the #1 adapter on it. So if anyone's got a #0 that they could measure, it'd be great to know if this will fit a regular #0 shutter (or if it's just some weird size that won't fit anything).

 

[paul_c5x4]

I measure 8.05mm aperture to rear mounting face on a Copal #0. A Copal #0.0 measures 8.35mm which is the shutter my 90mm S.A. elements are mounted in.

I note SK Grimes has some dimensioned drawings if you need them..

 

[Dan Fromm]

Clarifications, please. Which of the shutters all of you measured are press shutters and which are cock-and-shoot? I ask because press shutters' diaphragms are set farther back than cock-and-shoot shutters are.

Several examples that caused me pain: 80/2.8 Planar rear cell will fit in a #1 cock-and-shoot, hits a #1 press' diaphragm. 60/5.6 Konica Hexanon for Koni-Omega, same story but with #0 shutters.

 

[Dr Croubie]

Hi guys.
Paul, thanks for those drawings, although they're a little hard to pick out what's what. On the Copal 1 there is a dimension of 7.9mm, which would agree with what I'm measuring on mine.

Dan, I've measured 7.8 on an all-black "Copal-No.1" (sorry, I wrote Compur 1 in OP, it is a Copal), regular cock/shoot, exactly as in the drawing here.
I've also measured the same 7.8 on a black with silver inner/outer rings "Copal Press-No.1", back right in the photo here.
For completeness, the Compur Electronic 1 looks like this.

I've measured front-to-aperture this time, the Press agrees with Grimes' number of 11.25m (which gives 8.75mm to the rear minus the thickness of the blades).
The Copal 1, however, gives 11.75mm front-to-iris, which is 1mm more than Grimes' number of 10.75.

I'm starting to think that this Copal 1 might be a bit borken or out-of-spec. I was originally planning to mount the 90SA elements in it until it didn't fit.
It's obviously been re-mounted already, when I got it it had an aperture scale for 120mm, a 'Rodenstock Quality Seal' sticker, and Schneider Symmar-S MC 180mm elements in it, but otherwise works perfectly.