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dorff

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Jes' love to be lectured to by some self-appointed Perfesser of Photography and How The World Should Be Run. Everything you say if iffy, if not just wrong. Not to mention the last time I looked, it is still a free country. Some people like to shake things up and do it differently. I attended some Leica Flying Short Courses where the Leitz company flew "experts" around the country and gave the Word From Mt. Olympus to us mAsses. They said shoot and develop your film so as to have to print the negs with use of Grade Four Single Grade photo paper. This was stupid. They said you could not possibly use a 35mm camera that had a motor drive because static electricity would ruin the film. OF course, Leica invented the durn 325mm still camera to use 35mm motion picture film which normally runs at 16 frames a second and up. Without static electricity. Kodak used to lie about the ASA of their b&w films so you would overexpose and at least get something they could print up for you. The world is full of self-appointed "experts" including you.

What Gerald wrote was in the context of experienced users giving advice to novices, who more often than not end up in confusion and despondence. You probably know how to filter advice based on whence it came, but many inexperienced people can't, and don't know the APUG community. It took me two or so years to filter out the fluff. And you ought to understand that Gerald wasn't imposing his view of the photochemical world on you per se. He was merely pointing out that we are not doing newbies much of a favour by inundating them with conflicting advice and data, and he provided some perspective on how development and exposure are related to negative properties. I happen to agree with his approach, as it helped me to understand what I was doing and how to improve. And despite me being quite experienced by now, I tend to stay very close to manufacturer recommended development times and rather change the exposure to put the tones where I want them on the scale. This gives me a "negative for all seasons", which will scan and print well, on different enlargers and in different scanners. What I can't then compensate for with variable contrast printing and some dodging and burning usually isn't worth doing in any event.

Mixing different developers may for some unknown reason still prove to be useful. But there is no manufacturer support for such an approach, and no scientific proof that it solves a known problem better than other known solutions. It is not predictable, and not well studied, outside of the few casual experiments that some have done in this regard. Yet, it does not prevent anyone from trying it himself. In the context of helping newcomers come up to speed, it is spectacularly bad advice to suggest mixing developers, though. For me, it falls squarely in the arena of alchemy, not science (as yet). Unofficial developers such as Caffenol and its many variants are also in that category, but at least there is a fairly large user base with enough data to benchmark against that Caffenol can be considered by new users under the "use with caution" warning. I toasted several films with Caffenol stand because I did not happen to read that it does not work well for TMax 400, for instance. I was very annoyed afterwards, since the info was hard to find and I only knew to look for it after I suffered the consequences. This is the problem with being inexperienced and not using manufacture supported products and methods. No one to help you, since the manufacturer cannot cover usage outside of specification. And the web is a mine field.

And for the life of me, I can't figure out what Leica and Kodak have to do with what Gerald wrote. There is a clear distinction between what you call "Kodak lies" vs industry guidelines for the best compromise result for many different lighting conditions etc. Since the latter is based statistically on the best chance that an acceptable image would result, it is not dishonest. What other approach would you have suggested under the circumstances that prevailed at the time? I do share your dislike for the Leica way of preaching certain fiction as facts, but I don't see the link to Gerald's post.
 

JBrunner

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I pity the poor folks who purchased prints from me that were made from negatives with non standard development times... which were most of them. They also suffered from non standard exposures, non standard printing, and a non standard photographer:smile: I would like to add a caveat for the newb that consistency is one of the best teachers when it comes to photography and printing, as Gerald said in the fat part of the OP.

The big brains in Rochester and other manufactures spent a fair amount of time effort and money to make sure your aunt Sally's pictures turn out looking good. That being the case, speeds and times are based on the idea of giving useful results to the fat part of a statistical bell curve, nothing more. Average results for average photographers. Once you've mastered the fat part of that curve, the rest is there to be exploited, but if you haven't put in the time to have the chops, beware chasing the magic bullet. There is no free lunch.
 
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Gerald C Koch

Gerald C Koch

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Although we all could learn, I wonder whether Gerald was referring to a recent post of mine where I stated "13 minutes and 30 seconds"...

Nope what started the post was a thread on mixing Rodinal and DD-X developers. My thought was instead of tinkering just extend development in the DD-X if contrast is low. Simple and predictable fix. But some are hesitant to do this fearing to change development times. Weren't they all given on the third tablet that Mel Brooks as Moses dropped? :smile:
 

JW PHOTO

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Nope what started the post was a thread on mixing Rodinal and DD-X developers. My thought was instead of tinkering just extend development in the DD-X if contrast is low. Simple and predictable fix. But some are hesitant to do this fearing to change development times. Weren't they all given on the third tablet that Mel Brooks as Moses dropped? :smile:

Maybe some of those folks fear grain in extended development. Of course Rodinal certainly won't make grain smaller/less visible either. Oh well, each to their own I guess! JW
 

Photo Engineer

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Jes' love to be lectured to by some self-appointed Perfesser of Photography and How The World Should Be Run. Everything you say if iffy, if not just wrong. Not to mention the last time I looked, it is still a free country. Some people like to shake things up and do it differently. I attended some Leica Flying Short Courses where the Leitz company flew "experts" around the country and gave the Word From Mt. Olympus to us mAsses. They said shoot and develop your film so as to have to print the negs with use of Grade Four Single Grade photo paper. This was stupid. They said you could not possibly use a 35mm camera that had a motor drive because static electricity would ruin the film. OF course, Leica invented the durn 325mm still camera to use 35mm motion picture film which normally runs at 16 frames a second and up. Without static electricity. Kodak used to lie about the ASA of their b&w films so you would overexpose and at least get something they could print up for you. The world is full of self-appointed "experts" including you.

Gerald is correct in all aspects of his "lecture". I am not self appointed in my "right and authority" seconding his comments. I made my living working at Kodak for years in R&D and worked my way through College in a photo lab doing B&W and some color. I really don't care what the Leica people said, I care about what you said and how you said it. I always use grade 3 paper when enlarging due to the flare of my system.

I tell people "do what works for you". Gerry gave a good outline of what generally will not work or will not work well, such as mixing developers. Believe what he says!

PE
 

one90guy

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Hmmm some of my best negatives were developed in Adonal, 1st time using, at 1-100 for a little over a hour. One inversion at about half hour, with tap water which was probably between 76-78 temp. Also the film was Premium Arista 400 and Kentmere 100. Others may know more.

David
 
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