Developing zones/shadow vs. highlight.

[Corey Fehr]

Yes - after a lot of experience! Or you can get deep into the weeds of densitometry & sensitometry. Making a potentially expressive negative is relatively easy, judging how to print it comes with experience and aesthetic choice.

There's relatively little 'right' or 'wrong', just negatives that are easy to make prints that say what you want them to say & others that leave you pitching prints in the bin, cursing their inability to express what you want them to.

I think I need to get back to doing art that makes *me* feel something, and not what others or my professors want. I find beauty in things others dont-shapes, colors, movement.
Who defines art? Everyone and no one. Liberation.

 

[Leigh B]

To thine own self be true.

Sounds like good advice.

- Leigh

 

[MattKing]

So, when one gets to a more advanced point, do you hold up your negatives to the light and make a call based on that? (on how to develop for shadows and highlights?)

I will not be trying this anytime soon. Just curious.

Once you have your negative in hand, your film development and exposure has already been "cast in stone". At this stage you are either:
1) deciding what printing tools and techniques will be used in order to get a good print from the negative; or
2) deciding how best to re-shoot and develop anew your next film in order to get a negative that is easier to print! .

The second alternative can be the best one.

As your experience increases, your ability to guage the qualities of your negatives by looking at them will improve, but printing them is always the best way to evaluate them.

 

[Corey Fehr]

Thanks Leigh!

So for a novice like myself with limited experience, where should I be making most of my tone/density changes?

In printing and camera exposure?

 

[removed account4]

John, recommending any deviation from published specifications to a novice is extremely counter-productive.

Particularly so when you lack the qualifications, budget, and equipment on which to base such deviations.

If those adjustments results in better negatives in your darkroom, it likely results from errors in your process.

- Leigh

leigh
this is the first thing my photo1 instructor had me and my classmates do
not sure how this is counterproductive &c
most people who do "filmspeed tests" and publish their results here
suggest box speed is 1 stop off ... bracketing assures the light meter is working ..
nothing out of the ordinary ... bracketing exposures really is not an added expense besides
if it was supposed to be exposed at iso 400, instead of 200, ever exposure would be perfect 1 stop less exposed

anyone who only makes 1 exposure of a scene, portrait, landscape &c is kind of crazy anyways 1 exposure costs 14¢
and if that 14¢ or 12 exposures ( $1.50 ) determins what your meter is like, and how maybe you should be exposing the
rest of your exposures whith THAT CAMERA .. it is 1.50 well spent...

of course YMMV

 

[Leigh B]

So for a novice like myself with limited experience, where should I be making most of my tone/density changes? In printing and camera exposure?

I think the first goal of most photographers is to produce a negative that prints easily on grade 2 paper.

If the negative has higher density gradient than desired, you can go to a grade 1 paper.
You can go to intermediate grades if using variable-contrast paper.

I always try to get the desired detail in the shadows. Those are not easily manipulated after exposure.

If the subject is more contrasty than desired you can adjust film development to compensate.
Or you can use various printing techniques to compensate for a problem on the negative.

- Leigh

 

[Leigh B]

anyone who only makes 1 exposure of a scene, portrait, landscape &c is kind of crazy anyways.

A shooter who only makes one exposure understands his equipment, and knows what he's doing.

- Leigh

 

[removed account4]

A shooter who only makes one exposure understands his equipment, and knows what he's doing.

- Leigh

sorry leigh, that is kind of crazy nonsense, but if you say so ...

your perspecive is a bit different that mine. you are there, you might
as well make more than 1 exposure... having worked professionally for 30 years
i would never make 1 exposure of a scene, or situation whether i knew my equipment or not ...

 

[Corey Fehr]

Leigh-I understand all of what you’re saying except for adjusting film development.

By this, I’m thinking you mean putting the film in the tank and going through the chemical process.

How do you know what to develop/if it needs developing if you can’t see the film until after processing?

I think the first goal of most photographers is to produce a negative that prints easily on grade 2 paper.

If the negative has higher density gradient than desired, you can go to a grade 1 paper.
You can go to intermediate grades if using variable-contrast paper.

I always try to get the desired detail in the shadows. Those are not easily manipulated after exposure.

If the subject is more contrasty than desired you can adjust film development to compensate.
Or you can use various printing techniques to compensate for a problem on the negative.

- Leigh

 

[Leigh B]

Hi Corey,

This goes back to my much earlier reference to the Fuji Acros data sheet and its development charts.

Different development times produce negatives with different contrast ratios.
You can use that to compensate somewhat for subjects with brightness ratios that are not "normal".

- Leigh

 

[Corey Fehr]

How would one know if it needs it if they can't see the film?

Say you shoot a roll,and develop it "normally". It's only then that you can see the negatives and get an idea of the contrast and such, correct?

 

[Leigh B]

...having worked professionally for 30 years...

That's what happens when you change the frame of reference.

I've done many shoots where I did multiple exposures, though not necessarily different exposures.

Those were commonly safeties in the event some film got lost or incorrectly processed or whatever.
I've even shot multiple cameras in situations that were important and could not be duplicated for a re-shoot.

- Leigh

 

[Lachlan Young]

How do you know what to develop/if it needs developing if you can’t see the film until after processing?

You can meter the contrast range at the time of shooting very easily if you have a handheld meter. From this you can determine how much you need to raise or lower developing time to control the density of the highlights to ensure that the negative will print on your preferred grade of paper. You would have determined a suitable exposure index (EI) for your film of choice by prior testing.

Alternatively, you can knock approx. 25% off Ilford's recommended dev times, or 10-15% (possibly20) off Kodak's, add a stop of exposure when you shoot the negative (ie rate at 200 instead of 400) & you should get a neg that'll print nicely between G0 & G5 pretty much no matter the subject contrast. There are reasons why the manufacturers give the times they do - mainly to do with the notional 'normal' 7-stop scale of G2 paper & controlled lighting environments to ensure comparable data between films. Reality does not often fit into 7 stops.

 

[Michael Wesik]

Thanks Leigh!

So for a novice like myself with limited experience, where should I be making most of my tone/density changes?

In printing and camera exposure?

There's an important relationship between film exposure and development, and printing. They're all linked. But it all starts with your negative and having all the information you want/need in it. The best thing to do is to just shoot film and print.

What Leigh's getting at is that when you expose film, you're setting the density, but you when you develop that film you can manipulate the contrast of it through its processing. But that's tough to do if you're shooting roll film with 10 different subjects all with different lighting conditions. That's more for sheet film.

 

[Leigh B]

Say you shoot a roll,and develop it "normally". It's only then that you can see the negatives and get an idea of the contrast and such, correct?

Correct.

Photography is an iterative process.

You evaluate the subject and the shooting environment, then make the exposures.

Develop the film and evaluate it based on your expectations. Learn from your results.

If your results don't meet your expectations, determine what adjustments to make and repeat.

- Leigh

 

[Corey Fehr]

I think I know why I'm confused.

I have not yet been taught how to interpret/read/understand the level of contrast before I develop. On a meter or anything else.

So my thought process was, "How can I know whether to change something I can't even see?"

 

[removed account4]

you are arguing about 14¢ ?

it has nothing to do with changing the frame of reference,
whether i am exposing frames for myself or a client
i would never make 1 exposure. ESPECIALLY if it was a new camera to me
a new internal meter to me, if the camera hadn't had a CLA ( ordered by me )
and i was unfamiliar with my materials. my suggestion of rating the film 1/2 box speed
is common practice ... and bracketing exposures is just as common, as is a simple development +/-30%
to set a baseline .... it is nothing out of the ordinary. ( i think i read somewhere devid vestal suggests to do the same thing )

yes, i am prefectly knowledgeable and comfortable with both my equipment and materials and processing methods
to quote my photo1 instructor ( and photo2 an3 ... ) you were there, why didn't you make more exposures?
14¢ is a small price to pay to make sure the exposure is what you wanted, no matter the system of exposure
or light meter or expensive camera/lens/shutter combination you might be using ...

YMMV

 

[Corey Fehr]

I'd like to thank everyone for all your help today. I know it can be mundane to answer when you're so used to it, but the fine details are overwhelming to a newbie like myself.

Everyone's contribution has been greatly appreciated.

 

[Michael Wesik]

I think I know why I'm confused.

I have not yet been taught how to interpret/read/understand the level of contrast before I develop. On a meter or anything else.

So my thought process was, "How can I know whether to change something I can't even see?"

Think of it this way. When you're metering a scene and then making an exposure, you're making a decision where the elements of that subject fall on the tonal scale from white to middle gray to black in a print.

 

[Leigh B]

So my thought process was, "How can I know whether to change something I can't even see?"

You can see it, but you must learn to see it.

Take a black cat (meow... nice kitty).

Take one photo of it napping in a graveyard at midnight under a new moon.
Take another photo of it sunning on a powder blue car hood at noon in Arizona.

Those are two very different scenarios, but the cat (your subject) is the same.

Learn to understand the difference and how to expose for the cat and you understand proper exposure.

- Leigh

 

[Corey Fehr]

Think of it this way. When you're metering a scene and then making an exposure, you're making a decision where the elements of that subject fall on the tonal scale from white to middle gray to black in a print.

That makes sense. What if I have a roll of 24 , all with different exposures? How would I remember all of them and what the contrast was on each?

 

[Michael Wesik]

That makes sense. What if I have a roll of 24 , all with different exposures? How would I remember all of them and what the contrast was on each?

That's super tough without getting into different developers and stuff you don't even want to know right now. If you can, it's best to try keep all your exposures on a given roll within similar lighting conditions. That will make your life way easier but it's not always practical. But I found that I learned way more when I bracketed, starting off. So for any given exposure I would take one "normal" shot, then the same shot with an extra stop exposure, then two extra stop exposures, then one stop less (normal) exposure, and then two stops less (normal) exposure.

Normal lighting conditions are like a bright overcast sky; high contrast would be sunny blue sky; low contrast would be dark overcast sky...generally speaking.

 

[Corey Fehr]

Thanks Michael!

 

[Michael Wesik]

Sure thing. By bracketing, you'll get a sense of the relationship between your light meter, your film, and the way you're processing. Like for me, I shoot my film at 1/2 the recommended box speed (ISO 160 rather than ISO 320) because I get better shadow detail and overall tonality.

 

[Corey Fehr]

Why's that?