Developing Times for Hotter Days In Summer

braxus · Aug 2, 2021

Well on visual inspection, my dev time of 4 1/2 minutes seemed to work out fine. See pics.

As for AC, I don't have AC in my place, so whatever temp it is outside, is what I have to deal with inside. Its not hot right now, but a little warm for normal developing times.

DMJ · Aug 2, 2021

MattKing said:
I am a visual learner

Love those dials, the development and the enlarging ones are in the 1980 edition. In the 2002 edition there are 5 pages with developing times for all kodak films instead. There is only the enlarging dial. The 80's edition also comes with a grey card and samples of paper surfaces!

Wallendo · Aug 2, 2021

I sometimes use the Massive Development Chart iPhone app.
Other times, I have used cold water from the refrigerator. This works well with HC-110 or Rodinal, adding warm water to the cold water until the temps are close., With D76 or XTOL 1+1, I mix the solutions and wait for the temp to rise to 68F.

braxus · Aug 2, 2021

Im just glad I dont live in Phoenix Arizona, where temps are through the roof. I dont see how anyone can develop film themselves in that town without having AC inside to cool it down. It seems to get times in an acceptable area, you have to go 1:1 on the developer, as doing it straight wont work.

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

Or you could go to using it replenished .

DMJ · Aug 2, 2021

In addition to what @Wallendo said, I keep the tank and pitchers inside a bus tub filled with water at a degree or two lower than the desired temperature. Today is 26 (79) degrees outside and my water is coming out at 25.2 from the filter and 24.4 form the tap. I can manage that temperature with short developing times but that is the limit.

cjbecker · Aug 2, 2021

MattKing said:
Or you could go to using it replenished .

I’m now using replenished xtol and also the data guide for all my developing needs. Very easy. Use all chemicals at room temp and adjust time.

Mines a 5th edition, first printing 1974.

Dialing in my numbers but so far so good.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 2, 2021

braxus said:
Im just glad I dont live in Phoenix Arizona, where temps are through the roof. I dont see how anyone can develop film themselves in that town without having AC inside to cool it down. It seems to get times in an acceptable area, you have to go 1:1 on the developer, as doing it straight wont work.

The 12 years I lived in southern Japan taught me how to deal with high temperatures and humidity. A small AC unit in the window and lots of ice. I had to cart water in. Water directly from the kitchen tap was 30°C. Hence the ice. I much rather referred the winter months where my darkroom was closer to 20°C. My darkroom here is anywhere from 24 to 28°C. No AC so I depend more on a time temp chart and early morning sessions.

pentaxuser · Aug 2, 2021

It is interesting to see the differences that several charts show

In the case of an 8 mins normal (20C) time the MDC gives 3:58; Ralph's gives 4:10 ; Ilford 4:15 secs so all reasonably close

I could not find a chart for Kodak. However if I have used Donald's formula correctly and there may still be some doubt that until Donald replies his is the odd one out at only a few seconds from 5 mins

Setting aside the fact that at lower times the difference in development time in percentage terms is greater it strikes me that a minute's difference between the lowest at 4 mins and the highest at 5 mins might result in a noticeable difference in the film's development

Is this a reasonable assumption? It will be interesting to see what Braxus's view is of his 4 minute negs

PS. I keep on saying Donald's formula simply because it was he who introduced the formula shorthand but the same percentage is used by juan and for all I know, many others

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 2, 2021

With all these different charts and times, that is why I trust Ilford's chart. A company that makes film and has been in the business forever. I would love to see one by Kodak, if one exists, just for the sake of comparison.

DMJ · Aug 2, 2021

Can anyone share a link to the Ilford chart?

Horatio · Aug 2, 2021

I just (a couple days ago) processed a roll of Finesse 400 in D76 at 4:30. The ambient temps were 82F! Looks ok, but it was a test roll to check for light leaks, nothing critical. Here's a scan from that roll, cropped to 5x7:

Edit: I should mention that I found a time/temp table online, on which I based my time. I'm surprised it turned out as well as it did, considering 5 minutes is the minimum recommended time.

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
With all these different charts and times, that is why I trust Ilford's chart. A company that makes film and has been in the business forever. I would love to see one by Kodak, if one exists, just for the sake of comparison.

Kodak made the developing computer in the dataguide instead - plus the table in the applicable data sheet.
For example, X-Tol in small tanks (J-109):

Dismayed · Aug 2, 2021

I use ice. That way I'm always developing at 68 F.

DMJ · Aug 2, 2021

LowRes scan with iPad. Only Kodak films.

gone · Aug 2, 2021

I run water in the sink, add some ice and put the containers of dev and fix in it, w/ a thermometer hung in the water. That thermometer will sit and sit at the same reading for a long time, prompting me to go somewhere for like 20 seconds (roughly), and when I come it reads 55F! Figuring that the insides of the jars and dev tank are surely not 55F, in goes the developer.

During agitation, sometimes the tank goes back in the sink water, other times I forget and leave it on the counter. Next the developer goes out, a cold water rinse for stop, and after fixing, the fixer is usually poured down the drain just as I see my large homemade sign in red letters that says REUSE FIXER! There's usually a pause in the activities at this point as I nervously search for the jar of distilled water w/ rinse agent, which wasn't in the water bath w/ the other stuff. The negs come out perfect every time.

The main thing is to be consistent.

pentaxuser · Aug 2, 2021

braxus said:
Well on visual inspection, my dev time of 4 1/2 minutes seemed to work out fine. See pics.
.

Ah I had interpreted a little over 4 mins as maybe 4:10 max rather than 4:30 which puts it almost exactly halfway between the lowest time from the conversion charts and the 5 mins I think Donald's formula gives.

DMJ said:
Can anyone share a link to the Ilford chart?

So this Kodak chart is different to Ilford, Ralph's or the MDC in that it gives compensation for Kodak films only. There is not the Kodak equivalent of the other temperature conversion charts?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Helge · Aug 2, 2021

I just dunk a naked ice cube in the beaker.
When the temperature is reached, I add the amount of developer needed to get the solution back to correct.
Easy with XTOL 1:1 for example. And homeopathic with Rodinal.

DMJ · Aug 2, 2021

pentaxuser said:
There is not the Kodak equivalent of the other temperature conversion charts?

No, I believe there isn't a Kodak chart that includes other films and the chart next to the dial in the datasheet of the older dataguides does not include other films as far as I know.

MattKing said:
Kodak made the developing computer in the dataguide instead

Is this chart from the dataguide ? What edition ?

Pieter12 · Aug 2, 2021

momus said:
I run water in the sink, add some ice and put the containers of dev and fix in it, w/ a thermometer hung in the water. That thermometer will sit and sit at the same reading for a long time, prompting me to go somewhere for like 20 seconds (roughly), and when I come it reads 55F! Figuring that the insides of the jars and dev tank are surely not 55F, in goes the developer.

During agitation, sometimes the tank goes back in the sink water, other times I forget and leave it on the counter. Next the developer goes out, a cold water rinse for stop, and after fixing, the fixer is usually poured down the drain just as I see my large homemade sign in red letters that says REUSE FIXER! There's usually a pause in the activities at this point as I nervously search for the jar of distilled water w/ rinse agent, which wasn't in the water bath w/ the other stuff. The negs come out perfect every time.

The main thing is to be consistent.

No wash?

MattKing · Aug 2, 2021

DMJ said:
No, I believe there isn't a Kodak chart that includes other films and the chart next to the dial in the datasheet of the older dataguides does not include other films as far as I know.
Is this chart from the dataguide ? What edition ?

The chart from the dataguide (in this case the 1980 version) isn't what you need, it is the development dial itself. The development numbers are easily determined by just reverse engineering one data point from the data sheets from Kodak Alaris/now Sino Promise for the developer.
The chart I posted was from the 2018 version of the X-Tol data sheet.
Here is the current link on the Sino Promise hosted Kodak Professional Imaging Solutions website:
https://kodak.sinopromise.com/uploads/files/chemistry/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

Donald Qualls · Aug 3, 2021

pentaxuser said:
It is simply that I want to be sure I have done the calculation the correct way and that our difference of 5 secs stems from this and not a misunderstanding of what you did in your original formula which, as long as I have used it correctly, I found to be a new and useful addition to my knowledge.

You calculated correctly; we differ only by rounding error. One of the limitations of doing any part of the arithmetic in my head is that my registers are only 2-3 digits wide, so I have to round too early in the calculation; worse, in this case, I got to the 0.7 figure by memory of the inverse of 1.4, which is necessarily an approximation.

I think of it as slide rule accuracy in a 64-bit double precision age -- still good enough for most purposes, but putting the precision bar to the left of the decimal doesn't look as nice...

pentaxuser · Aug 3, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
You calculated correctly; we differ only by rounding error. ..

Thanks Donald for the reply. Your formula is a useful addition to my knowledge.

While your formula results in times at the upper end of the range of times, this may not matter at all when dev times are still all quite long but I wonder, more as an academic inquiry really than anything else, how much of a one minute difference makes to very short development times around the 4 minute mark.

It would seem that 4:30 is fine for Braxus and his negs look OK to me so maybe 1 minute's overall difference is still OK The only way to know for sure what a 1 min increase from the shortest time results in is probably a Stouffer wedge check on the neg or a densitometer

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Aug 3, 2021

One minute? You and I differed by about five seconds. And thirty seconds (10%) between Braxus actual process and your calculation, with mine about 2% less than yours. A difference of 10% is about the minimum that will produce distinguishable negatives without a densitometer, and analog thermometers have enough variation that you'll be running about that level anyway.

pentaxuser · Aug 3, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
One minute? You and I differed by about five seconds.

The one minute comes from the range that the MDC, Ralph's and Ilford's charts give compared to the close to one minute extra that your formula gives for Braxus' time of 8 mins at 20C compared to the reduction for 27C which was what he had when he developed his actual film

My figures are in #34

pentaxuser

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