Have you made a darkroom print before?
Developing time for FB paper
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When it stops getting darker, it is done.
PhotoFlo works best if the mixing follows the directions exactly, then after some time adjust from there rather than throwing in a random size drop into a random volume of water. However, only use PhotoFlo for film, not paper.
Photo Knowledge,
Despite your handle, you seem to be in search of much basic knowledge. In order to facilitate that, I'd suggest that a bit of humility would serve you well and go a long way toward your reaching your goal.
Participants here on this forum are largely experienced to expert photographers and scientists, who not only know the answers to your questions, but also all the intricacies and possible missteps you can make along the way. I would advise treating these people courteously and listening to them carefully.
Your not recognizing the answer to your questions about times that Matt posted (one of the many hard-working and knowledgeable moderators on this forum, by the way) leads me to believe that you are maybe being a bit hasty and really want answers spoon-fed to you in easily digestible form. That doesn't always happen here, since, as with most of life, things are often more complicated than they seem.
Your answers also seem a bit brusque, if I may use the term, which shows a little less appreciation and gratitude for people's time and willingness to share their knowledge than you might have intended. Everyone here is trying to help and should be rewarded for so doing.
I'll try to give you an overview and help with your questions too:
Developer time: 2 minutes (a bit more won't hurt, but standardize on a time).
Stop time: 30 seconds (a bit more won't hurt here either).
Fixing time is more complicated, so bear with me. Easiest and fastest, but most expensive is Ilford's quick-fix method: Fix for 1 minute, no more, no less as close as you can, in Ilford Rapid Fixer mixed 1-4. Immediately rinse after that for 1 minute.
Then, transfer the print to your wash-aid (either Ilford Wash Aid or Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent) for 10 minutes with agitation.
Then wash your prints for a minimum of 20 minutes in running water.
You do not need to use a wetting agent like Photo Flo or Ilford Ilfotol for prints. It is for film and used as a final rinse before drying to prevent water spots.
Hope this helps.
By the way, where are you in Oregon? I'm in Eugene and would be happy to give you personal advice if you're close.
Doremus
Despite your handle, you seem to be in search of much basic knowledge. In order to facilitate that, I'd suggest that a bit of humility would serve you well and go a long way toward your reaching your goal.
Participants here on this forum are largely experienced to expert photographers and scientists, who not only know the answers to your questions, but also all the intricacies and possible missteps you can make along the way. I would advise treating these people courteously and listening to them carefully.
Your not recognizing the answer to your questions about times that Matt posted (one of the many hard-working and knowledgeable moderators on this forum, by the way) leads me to believe that you are maybe being a bit hasty and really want answers spoon-fed to you in easily digestible form. That doesn't always happen here, since, as with most of life, things are often more complicated than they seem.
Your answers also seem a bit brusque, if I may use the term, which shows a little less appreciation and gratitude for people's time and willingness to share their knowledge than you might have intended. Everyone here is trying to help and should be rewarded for so doing.
I'll try to give you an overview and help with your questions too:
Developer time: 2 minutes (a bit more won't hurt, but standardize on a time).
Stop time: 30 seconds (a bit more won't hurt here either).
Fixing time is more complicated, so bear with me. Easiest and fastest, but most expensive is Ilford's quick-fix method: Fix for 1 minute, no more, no less as close as you can, in Ilford Rapid Fixer mixed 1-4. Immediately rinse after that for 1 minute.
Then, transfer the print to your wash-aid (either Ilford Wash Aid or Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent) for 10 minutes with agitation.
Then wash your prints for a minimum of 20 minutes in running water.
You do not need to use a wetting agent like Photo Flo or Ilford Ilfotol for prints. It is for film and used as a final rinse before drying to prevent water spots.
Hope this helps.
By the way, where are you in Oregon? I'm in Eugene and would be happy to give you personal advice if you're close.
Doremus
Heico Permawash, Eco Pro Hypo Wash, Aristo Hypo Wash, are wash aid products that help eliminate fixer and shorten the wash time and minimize water usage. Typically at the end of your printing session you'd agitate your prints in a tray of washaid (3 oz/gallon).for circa 5 min....then wash for reduced time (20 min for FB prints, less for RC)
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For 50 years. I am just constantly amazed at the varying, but seemingly authoritative, statements made on Photrio on a wide range of topics.
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snus ... pardon my delay in replying, but I had to step out for some garden work. What is effective DMax is never a constant. You need to factor in the drydown as well as effects of toning, or you might end up with too much dark area than you hoped for. And you might want a visible gradation of blacks, with the sheer abyss only at certain accenting points. In other images, you might want to represent a long silvery gray scale instead, with no extremes at all. Not all papers these days do a good job at that latter task, but when they do, it can be very rewarding. The only overriding rule is that there are no rules!
But given the context of this particular thread, with its beginner questions, it is helpful to give starting tips, and what to look for. But that should never be a hard rule carved in stone. Not even the gurus of the Zone System religion always followed their own mantra. In fact, a lot of the time, they didn't. And some well-known printmakers almost never had full DMax in their prints. I often do, but not always myself. I have certain portraits in particular where it would ruin the image, and certain misty or atmospheric landscape scenes as well. I judge my prints by my own set of eyes, not according to any straightjacket "how-to" manifesto.
But given the context of this particular thread, with its beginner questions, it is helpful to give starting tips, and what to look for. But that should never be a hard rule carved in stone. Not even the gurus of the Zone System religion always followed their own mantra. In fact, a lot of the time, they didn't. And some well-known printmakers almost never had full DMax in their prints. I often do, but not always myself. I have certain portraits in particular where it would ruin the image, and certain misty or atmospheric landscape scenes as well. I judge my prints by my own set of eyes, not according to any straightjacket "how-to" manifesto.
Then why are you asking such questions? You should well know by now. Or are you just trolling?
I ask questions about how people do things in the hope of learning something new. That usually involves follow-up questions when people do not adequately explain why they do what they do, or give inconsistent responses.
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MattKing
Moderator
By the way, well "develop to completion" is descriptive, it may make more sense to think of as "avoid incomplete development".
With fresh developer an d using as a guide Ilford's suggestion of a 1.5 - 3 minute range and their comment that development times up to 6 minutes are unlikely to extend to unwanted fogging, I like to use 3 minutes as my base time.
The difference between 1.5 minutes and 2 minutes will likely be small, the difference between 2 minutes and 3 minutes will likely be miniscule, and there may be no observable difference between 3 minutes and 6 minutes. Everything from 1.5 minutes through 6 minutes will most likely be sufficiently complete to be of high quality, but working toward the longer end of the times will help prevent problems with incomplete development, and therefore ensure high quality and consistent results, even as developer starts to lose activity through use and other factors.
With fresh developer an d using as a guide Ilford's suggestion of a 1.5 - 3 minute range and their comment that development times up to 6 minutes are unlikely to extend to unwanted fogging, I like to use 3 minutes as my base time.
The difference between 1.5 minutes and 2 minutes will likely be small, the difference between 2 minutes and 3 minutes will likely be miniscule, and there may be no observable difference between 3 minutes and 6 minutes. Everything from 1.5 minutes through 6 minutes will most likely be sufficiently complete to be of high quality, but working toward the longer end of the times will help prevent problems with incomplete development, and therefore ensure high quality and consistent results, even as developer starts to lose activity through use and other factors.
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Matt, incomplete "snatch" development could lead to lovely results with certain past graded papers. Not so much the current VC selection, however, which seems to come out blaaah instead if underdeveloped. I have a stash of good ole EMaks graded which still behaves as fresh; and it snatches nicely, though I don't have any particular negs in mind at the moment where I'd want to do that. Not to be confused with "lith printing", which I don't personally do. But quite a few of my finest prints ever came from breaking the "rules", sometimes accidentally.
MattKing
Moderator
A very specialized technique though - those new to this should probably wait a bit before trying it.
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I agree. But I'm just inferring that, in the course of the learning curve, accidents can sometimes be happy ones. To this day, every single time I botch up something, I at least learn something new and potentially valuable. So beginners shouldn't be afraid to make mistakes, or get trapped in the notion that there's only one right way to do something.
Thank you but I'm done talking about all of this now it's just making me frustrated and angry so thank your for all your help guys but when I ask questions about the developers I use you guys just tell me the developers you use and that don't help me. I'll do what works for me because I've been getting images and my prints have a good range of tones in them so I'm doing things fine but could always use improvement. This is too overwhelming for me. Thank you for trying to teach me but I'm just getting too many different answers and I don't want to freak out anymore.
MattKing
Moderator
We are glad that you are seeing some good results.
It is important though to realize that posts in threads aren't just directed to the person that started the threads. They are designed to be discussions that may also help others.
So, glean from the thread whatever help you can, and understand that others may benefit as well.
It is important though to realize that posts in threads aren't just directed to the person that started the threads. They are designed to be discussions that may also help others.
So, glean from the thread whatever help you can, and understand that others may benefit as well.
I am private where I am located in Oregon but thank you for the advice. Again another frustration. I do not have a wash aid. But that's fine right? I don't exactly need one? What's the difference between a wash aid and a wetting agent? Well someone said I can use photo flo for prints and you say I don't need one. That's the part that is frustrating me. I need in person training I can't handle forums and online stuff very well. It gives me panic attacks and that's why I'm so on edge in this group. It would be very difficult for me not too be on edge in here but I'll be more respectful. You are close to me in Oregon so if you want to send me a personal message go ahead. Thank you!
Well I don't care to read a bunch of opinions that could be actual facts because there are pros in here. All the answers are very overwhelming for me. All of this has gave me extreme panic attacks and if I continue to keep reading stuff I don't really understand I could flip out in here and that's not wanted and I do not want that. I need one on one hand on training. I don't understand what I read with anything I read. I can read what I'm reading but I don't understand the words so maybe this place isn't for me. Thank you for your time I am gonna leave this place now and go find a one on one teacher like I had before.
I encourage everyone to read the instructions that came with your paper, developer, stop bath, fixer, and other processing chemicals. They suggest good places to start. I think it is bad form to post questions before reading the instructions.
Snusmumriken,
Extending paper development time past that which is necessary for "complete development," i.e., that point at which the paper's dmax is achieved and the paper curve shape has stabilized, has the effect of increasing paper speed. That means that the characteristic curve remains the same shape, but simply moves to the faster-speed side of the graph.
In essence, this is the same as adding a tiny bit more exposure from the enlarger. I find it useful to fine-tune print exposure times by being able to decrease (a bit) or increase my development times without adjusting my exposure time by fractions of a second, or even a second or two, especially when I've got all the print manipulations down already.
My standard print developing time is 2.5 minutes, but I'll change that to anywhere between 2 and 5 minutes to tweak paper speed a bit if needed and convenient.
The trick of increasing paper contrast with increased development time is largely a thing of the past. I don't know of any modern papers that significantly react that way to increased development.
Best,
Doremus
You first have to test for fogging from too much development -- before you test for maximum black. But before all that your need to test your safelights. Get a copy of Richard Henry's book
7. Test for fog from too long a development time.
7. Test for fog from too long a development time.
- A. Turn off all lights, including the safelights.
- B. Cut an 8x10 sheet of paper into 1 inch strips.
- C. Fix and wash an unexposed, undeveloped strip of paper as determined in the first tests. This will be your comparative strip with no development.
- D. Develop each additional strip for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. minutes. Then fix and wash, as determined in earlier tests.
- E. Compare strips. Any greying, even a little, indicates fogging due to too long a development time. With most papers, usually anything less than five minutes is OK. Run fine-tuning tests if you think they are appropriate.
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Since it's been thrown around here without any definition -- a common problem in photography -- it might as well be. But preferences always enter into it. Some people prefer densitometers, others prefer eyeballs.
For me "completion" (I never use that term) is equivalent to developing long enough to achieve maximum black in the print. Not that every negative will produce maximum black, but if you don't develop enough to provide it, you will never reach it when the negative can provide it.
You don't need an exposure to test for maximum black, but you do need some developed film -- for base + fog adjustment.
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Now is maximum black without contrast filters? Let's say my print goes almost black is that maximum black? And I adjust my time from there?
You do not need a wash aid, but they do help you wash prints quicker with less water.
The short answer is you will be fine developing your FB paper for 2 minutes, stop bath for 30 seconds, and fix for 2 minutes in a rapid fixer.
The long answer is there is a range of times that will work for you. You really should test your fixing times and wash times if you want to be sure your prints will last. When you are ready read up on archival printing procedures.
All paper will fog if left in developer too long. Now, what that implies is that there is no actual "completion" of development. But there is the point at which everything seems to have stopped getting darker without the unexposed parts of the paper turning grey. That lasts a long time for most papers - unless they are old or have been preflashed. Any time into that period is what would be considered "completion". So, like Drew and others have said, you need to check how long that takes with your paper and dev combination.
Usually, you will settle on a time for your developer that will satisfy those requirements. This is all harder to describe than it is to observe. You'll notice that your MGIV RC print doesn't really change between minute 2 and minute 3, for example, so you will start to think that's the appropriate time. Examining the print for inconsistency after it's dry is how you confirm it.
Sure fire confirmation is hold half your print out of the dev for 20 seconds then see how long it takes for both halves to look the same. Completion is a mininum 20 seconds before that point.
Usually, you will settle on a time for your developer that will satisfy those requirements. This is all harder to describe than it is to observe. You'll notice that your MGIV RC print doesn't really change between minute 2 and minute 3, for example, so you will start to think that's the appropriate time. Examining the print for inconsistency after it's dry is how you confirm it.
Sure fire confirmation is hold half your print out of the dev for 20 seconds then see how long it takes for both halves to look the same. Completion is a mininum 20 seconds before that point.
The half of the print out of the developer will continue to develop until it is rinsed or immersed in stop bath.
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