Developing time for FB paper

DREW WILEY · Aug 9, 2023

What I run into a lot is people getting a whole set of how-to manuals, like AA's interpretation of the Zone System, and trying to figure it all out in advance. The "education" needs to go hand-in-hand with actual shooting, development, and printing. I ran into the opposite case out on the trail the other day - a young man full of questions who had taken a darkroom class in high school and learned to successfully make prints, but who otherwise wasn't a reader or academic type at all. If I had been jibber-jabbering ZS lingo or densitometry stats at him, it would have been a total waste of time. A simple look through my ground glass, set up and composed, would be of far more value to inspire him to go further.

Pieter12 · Aug 9, 2023

Doremus Scudder said:
That's perfectly fine if you know what you are doing. There are many, however, who are struggling to get prints they are satisfied with, so knowing where to look for getting the whole tonal-reproduction system working correctly is helpful. That's usually the point of my diatribes

Doremus

Photo Knowledge said:
I have just been using recommended times for my developer and stop and fix. When I see a image and it's too dark I leave it under the enlarger shorter. If I get a image that looks good to my eye I'm satisfied with it. I do not know anything about developing longer or shorter. This has been working for me and most of the time I'm liking the results. A couple of people have mentioned develope to taste and that's what I've been doing. I'm getting images I'm adjusting my exposure times if something is a bit too dark or too light. One subject I'm curious about is understanding Maximum Black and fogging! Thanks for the info it's helping!

You really shouldn't have to futz with developing times (unless you're doing lith). If you get satisfactory prints with the developing time you're using all the rest is exposure time, grade and dodging and burning. Developing time should be a no-brainer.

L Gebhardt · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
I have just been using recommended times for my developer and stop and fix. When I see a image and it's too dark I leave it under the enlarger shorter. If I get a image that looks good to my eye I'm satisfied with it. I do not know anything about developing longer or shorter. This has been working for me and most of the time I'm liking the results. A couple of people have mentioned develope to taste and that's what I've been doing. I'm getting images I'm adjusting my exposure times if something is a bit too dark or too light. One subject I'm curious about is understanding Maximum Black and fogging! Thanks for the info it's helping!

You are doing it right in my book. Develop all your prints for a fixed/standard time that is able to yield the maximum black of the paper, 2 minutes works well for most papers and developers. Then adjust the exposure and the contrast to get the print you want. With reasonable development times you should not get fogging with a bit of extra time in the developer.

eli griggs · Aug 9, 2023

A note to newbies to darkroom wet work.

Do no save Photoflo or other wetting agent after the days processing has been done.

Photoflo can/does grow mold/fungus quickly and using the 200 or 600 chemistry's available, makes it into an affordable consumable that is too valuable in its usage per roll, and reducing spots.

Also, it's common for darkroom workers to "squeeze" roll film between the fingers on a hand that make the 'V' or 'peace sign', which I did for years myself.

However, dry skin, psorious, calluses, and other skin conditions, CAN scratch roll films and if you use this method, I suggest you wear silicon or better, nitrile gloves to avoid scratching any film.

A number of non Kodak and Ilford films have thinner or more sensitive emulsions, for example, Ekfe, which is still available to those of us that still have it or buy old, stashed away stock.

Look up online forums reviews of new to you films before developing.

Pieter12 · Aug 9, 2023

eli griggs said:
A note to newbies to darkroom wet work.

Do no save Photoflo or other wetting agent after the days processing has been done.

Photoflo can/does grow mold/fungus quickly and using the 200 or 600 chemistry's available, makes it into an affordable consumable that is too valuable in its usage per roll, and reducing spots.

Also, it's common for darkroom workers to "squeeze" roll film between the fingers on a hand that make the 'V' or 'peace sign', which I did for years myself.

However, dry skin, psorious, calluses, and other skin conditions, CAN scratch roll films and if you use this method, I suggest you wear silicon or better, nitrile gloves to avoid scratching any film.

A number of non Kodak and Ilford films have thinner or more sensitive emulsions, for example, Ekfe, which is still available to those of us that still have it or buy old, stashed away stock.

Look up online forums reviews of new to you films before developing.

Wash agents don't last long either.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2023

I do two test strips per print.

One for magenta
One exposed to the selected magenta settings and then exposed for yellow.

takilmaboxer · Aug 9, 2023

"One subject I'm curious about is understanding Maximum Black"
Here's the story. If light hits white paper, most is reflected, and the paper looks white.
Your printing paper is coated with a thin layer of emulsion. When light hits it it passes through the emulsion twice. Once going down, then it reflects off the paper surface, and passes through again coming back. If enough light is absorbed by the emulsion the paper looks black. But the emulsion can only absorb a certain amount of light, and that happens when the developer has developed all the silver in the emulsion. You can leave the paper in the developer longer but it will not get any darker, because you have reached the maximum blackness that the paper is capable of: Maximum Black.
Does that help?

xkaes · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
One subject I'm curious about is understanding Maximum Black and fogging! Thanks for the info it's helping!

Fogging happens when a print is developed too long. The problem is that the whitest white the paper will show is not as white as the paper can produce because it's fogged.

Maximum black is sort of the opposite. You want to develop the paper long enough to achieve the blackest black that the paper can produce. Not every picture has maximum black in it, but those that do will just be a dark grey if the paper is not developed enough.

So you have to test your paper (each paper is different with each developer) to make sure your development time is LONG enough -- to get maximum black -- and SHORT enough -- to avoid fogging.

It's a window -- a range of time. When you figure out what it is -- with testing -- you always develop your prints for the same amount of time. The only thing that varies is the exposure of the paper.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

xkaes said:
Fogging happens when a print is developed too long. The problem is that the whitest white the paper will show is not as white as the paper can produce because it's fogged.

Maximum black is sort of the opposite. You want to develop the paper long enough to achieve the blackest black that the paper can produce. Not every picture has maximum black in it, but those that do will just be a dark grey if the paper is not developed enough.

So you have to test your paper (each paper is different with each developer) to make sure your development time is LONG enough -- to get maximum black -- and SHORT enough -- to avoid fogging.

It's a window -- a range of time. When you figure out what it is -- with testing -- you always develop your prints for the same amount of time. The only thing that varies is the exposure of the paper.

Does fogging make the whites look gray? I'm still not understanding this whole maximum black thing. Is maximum black where the blacks go completely black with no detail? Is there a picture or video example of maximum black? See I kind of like my blacks almost crushed with no detail and my whites with no detail for some prints. So i like my blacks in zone 1-2 and my whites in zone 9-10. For me when I put my blacks and whites in those zones I'm not worrying about making a perfect picture.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
You are doing it right in my book. Develop all your prints for a fixed/standard time that is able to yield the maximum black of the paper, 2 minutes works well for most papers and developers. Then adjust the exposure and the contrast to get the print you want. With reasonable development times you should not get fogging with a bit of extra time in the developer.

How do you adjust the contrast on a print? I know what adjusting my exposure is. Most of my times are between 3-5 seconds with my enlarger lens set at F8. Say I set my lens to F11 or F16 would my times go from 3-5 seconds to say 7-9 seconds or more? How does all that work with F stops on the lens vs times. And I'm still not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. I guess I can research that more myself instead of ask questions on here. I'm just not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. Got a simple example or picture or video for me on both those subjects of Maximum Black and Fogging?

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
Does fogging make the whites look gray? I'm still not understanding this whole maximum black thing. Is maximum black where the blacks go completely black with no detail? Is there a picture or video example of maximum black? See I kind of like my blacks almost crushed with no detail and my whites with no detail for some prints. So i like my blacks in zone 1-2 and my whites in zone 9-10. For me when I put my blacks and whites in those zones I'm not worrying about making a perfect picture.

Yes, fogging makes the whites look gray. All papers have a maximum black (Dmax). Black is a subjective thing. If the blacks in your print are acceptable to your eye, then all is well. If your blacks are not where you want them, switch to a higher contrast printing filter.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
How do you adjust the contrast on a print? I know what adjusting my exposure is. Most of my times are between 3-5 seconds with my enlarger lens set at F8. Say I set my lens to F11 or F16 would my times go from 3-5 seconds to say 7-9 seconds or more? How does all that work with F stops on the lens vs times. And I'm still not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. I guess I can research that more myself instead of ask questions on here. I'm just not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. Got a simple example or picture or video for me on both those subjects of Maximum Black and Fogging?

If you are using a variable contrast paper, you can control the contrast (the blacks) by the filter used. Do you have a printing filter pack?

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Yes, fogging makes the whites look gray. All papers have a maximum black (Dmax). Black is a subjective thing. If the blacks in your print are acceptable to your eye, then all is well. If your blacks are not where you want them, switch to a higher contrast printing filter.

I think I almost understand Maximum Black. Ok I understand Fogging now. But what is Maximum Black? What does it mean what is it's definition? What is Dmax? Thanks for being patient with me. And what is the ISO on papers? I know it's low.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
If you are using a variable contrast paper, you can control the contrast (the blacks) by the filter used. Do you have a printing filter pack?

Yes I do Ilford Multigrade Filters. What is the grade on papers? Say I'm using a grade 2 paper and then I add a grade 2 filter. Does that turn it to a grade 4 filter look?

MattKing · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
How do you adjust the contrast on a print? I know what adjusting my exposure is. Most of my times are between 3-5 seconds with my enlarger lens set at F8. Say I set my lens to F11 or F16 would my times go from 3-5 seconds to say 7-9 seconds or more? How does all that work with F stops on the lens vs times. And I'm still not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. I guess I can research that more myself instead of ask questions on here. I'm just not understanding Maximum Black or Fogging. Got a simple example or picture or video for me on both those subjects of Maximum Black and Fogging?

If you use f/8 and 3 seconds, you will get essentially the same results with f/11 and 6 seconds, which will be essentially the same as f/16 and 12 seconds.
Each f/stop transmits half as much light as the next one (when you increase the number), so to get the same result you need to double the time.
I'll see if I can find a good example of a scan of a fogged pint.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

MattKing said:
If you use f/8 and 3 seconds, you will get essentially the same results with f/11 and 6 seconds, which will be essentially the same as f/16 and 12 seconds.
Each f/stop transmits half as much light as the next one (when you increase the number), so to get the same result you need to double the time.
I'll see if I can find a good example of a scan of a fogged pint.

Hey thanks man. I have been using my in camera light meter for all my pictures and I know the in camera light meter averages out the scene so I'm not necessarily metering certain spots of the scene. How does that effect my print? Let's say Woodland Photography for example. If I was going to spot meter the shadows and stop down two stops as recommended so F8 would be F16 or 1/15 of a second would be 1/60th and so on. Would I get a better looking negative if I used a spot meter instead of my in camera light meter? Like would my tones fall into place better with a spot meter?

MattKing · Aug 9, 2023

Let's see if an illustration might help. These are digital facsimiles of prints, but the middle one is very close to how the print looks on my wall.
First, this is how a print looks when you haven't given it enough exposure to for the print to have any fully black part to it - "maximum black" hasn't been achieved. Note that the darkest parts are more grey than black:

The next example is a print where I have given the print enough exposure for the blacks to achieve "maximum black", without giving it too much exposure. Note how there is a wide range of tones, from bright highlights, to well rendered midtones, through nice, substantial and weighty shadows:

The final example is the one where the digital approximation is not quite as accurate, but it should still give you a sense what happens when you give the print much more exposure than is necessary to achieve maximum black. The details that should be visible in the near darkest shadows have disappeared, the mid-tones are more like shadows, and the highlights are dim and grey:

I hope these give you a sense of what you are looking for.

xkaes · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
Does fogging make the whites look gray?

You can call it extremely light gray -- like FOG.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
What I run into a lot is people getting a whole set of how-to manuals, like AA's interpretation of the Zone System, and trying to figure it all out in advance. The "education" needs to go hand-in-hand with actual shooting, development, and printing. I ran into the opposite case out on the trail the other day - a young man full of questions who had taken a darkroom class in high school and learned to successfully make prints, but who otherwise wasn't a reader or academic type at all. If I had been jibber-jabbering ZS lingo or densitometry stats at him, it would have been a total waste of time. A simple look through my ground glass, set up and composed, would be of far more value to inspire him to go further.

Would reading the books The Camera The Negative and The print help me out at all? I know a photographer that knows a lot in the darkroom and film in general but knows nothing about light meters or zones. Makes his own cameras. His stuff is dark. Not the print itself but his art work itself. He showed me that shooting and printing is subjective and he don't worry about zones and tones. He pushes his film a lot. Crushed blacks bright whites. I also like what I learned in here. Print to your liking.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
Hey thanks man. I have been using my in camera light meter for all my pictures and I know the in camera light meter averages out the scene so I'm not necessarily metering certain spots of the scene. How does that effect my print? Let's say Woodland Photography for example. If I was going to spot meter the shadows and stop down two stops as recommended so F8 would be F16 or 1/15 of a second would be 1/60th and so on. Would I get a better looking negative if I used a spot meter instead of my in camera light meter? Like would my tones fall into place better with a spot meter?

Those are good questions.
But it would really be better if you asked them in a thread devoted to them, rather than mixing them into your printing question thread.
Suffice it to say though that generally speaking, the better your negative, the simpler it is to print from it.

Photo Knowledge · Aug 9, 2023

MattKing said:
Let's see if an illustration might help. These are digital facsimiles of prints, but the middle one is very close to how the print looks on my wall.
First, this is how a print looks when you haven't given it enough exposure to for the print to have any fully black part to it - "maximum black" hasn't been achieved. Note that the darkest parts are more grey than black: View attachment 346120

The next example is a print where I have given the print enough exposure for the blacks to achieve "maximum black", without giving it too much exposure. Note how there is a wide range of tones, from bright highlights, to well rendered midtones, through nice, substantial and weighty shadows:

View attachment 346121

The final example is the one where the digital approximation is not quite as accurate, but it should still give you a sense what happens when you give the print much more exposure than is necessary to achieve maximum black. The details that should be visible in the near darkest shadows have disappeared, the mid-tones are more like shadows, and the highlights are dim and grey:

View attachment 346122

I hope these give you a sense of what you are looking for.

So your saying maximum black is black with some detail like the second image? And the last image wouldn't be maximum black? To me I'm still thinking maximum black is the bottom picture because it's more Black.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
Would reading the books The Camera The Negative and The print help me out at all?

It is probably too soon to read those books. They are better for someone with more experience than I think you have.

xkaes · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
I think I almost understand Maximum Black. Ok I understand Fogging now. But what is Maximum Black? What does it mean what is it's definition? What is Dmax? Thanks for being patient with me. And what is the ISO on papers? I know it's low.

Dmax / Maximum black is how black a piece of photo paper can get. Not all papers are the same. Some have whiter whites and some have blacker blacks. But you need to test whatever paper you want to use to make sure you are getting the whitest white possible -- for when you need it, and the blackest black possible -- for when you need that.

How do you do that? You run tests which are fully explained in 200 page books like Henry's Controls in Black & White Photography. (Ansel Adam's book were ground breaking, like Sigmund Freud's, but confusing to most people -- like The Bible.) There's no way it can be summarized in a few paragraphs -- although many will try. The point is that you have to do your own tests. They are really very simple, such as test how to avoid fog, and test how to reach maximum black. What someone else does probably won't work for you but you are free to go down that road if you choose. Many have.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2023

Photo Knowledge said:
Would reading the books The Camera The Negative and The print help me out at all? I know a photographer that knows a lot in the darkroom and film in general but knows nothing about light meters or zones. Makes his own cameras. His stuff is dark. Not the print itself but his art work itself. He showed me that shooting and printing is subjective and he don't worry about zones and tones. He pushes his film a lot. Crushed blacks bright whites. I also like what I learned in here. Print to your liking.

I have all three of his books. The Camera is boring (for me at the time). I learnt a lot more from The Negative, and from The Print.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2023

Matt is probably correct. The very first book I ever read was by John Schaefer, The Ansel Adams Guide: Techniques of Photography (book 1). That then led to Adams' three book series.

Developing time for FB paper

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