Developing B+W film at 28 Celsius

[karin bingel]

Would it be advisable to develope Delta 100+ Delta 400 at aprox. 28 degrees
Celsius? Should I expect deterioration of the image? I live in Athens, Greece
and I do not have access to an air-conditioned space. Washing is done using
the Ilford method. I would be gratefull for any suggestion.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Hello Karin, I don't know if it's safe to process BW film at such temperature. 24 on the other hand should be fine and not too far from room temperature. Development time will also be short and that will help you maintain the temperature stable. Some time ago, I put 350ml of water in the beaker (24 deg Celsius, room temp 30) and checked every minute to see how much the temperature rises. After 8 minutes there was an increase of 0,5 degrees. I didn't use a tempering bath, just the beaker alone and stirred with the mixing rod to emulate agitation. In any case, you can see for yourself and check the temperature difference for the suggested time. If the difference is big, you can start development at lower temperature to compensate for the rise.

EDIT: Don't forget to presoak for some minutes.

 

[Mike Richards]

In theory, high temperature processing is possible if you keep the development times above 5 minutes, but I would not recommend it. Ilford lists only up to 27C: Ilford Compensation Chart. I have the same problem, but always try to keep the developer close to 20C. I have a small dishpan that I fill with water and ice, and set the developer, stop, and fixer in separate beakers in the pan. This is my first step. Then I load the reels and get the tank ready to go. When I'm ready to develop, the chemicals are often at or near normal developing temperatures. Sometimes I add more ice if needed to bring it down to 20C. The developer is the most important; the other chemicals, wash water, etc. can be a bit off and it doesn't matter.

 

[PhotoJim]

There are so-called tropical developers intended for these temperatures. I have no idea how they are as far as their development properties, though. I live in one of those parts of the world where we have the opposite problem. (In fact, right now, in the heat of summer, water comes out of the tap at a perfect 20 degrees. It's more like 11 degrees in the winter, and I've seen it as low as 6 if we have an extended cold period.)

 

[Venchka]

Have tried letting the chemicals sit overnight and measure the temp. EARLY in the morning, say 5am? I use ice and a dishpan to hold my chemicals and wash water. The water in the dishpan holds the temp. for a long time. If you must develop at 24-28 degrees, use Xtol 1:3, Rodinal 1:100, Microdol-X 1:3, D-76 1:3, etc. to keep your time long enough to avoid errors. Rodinal 1:100 is good for that. Nice long times.

 

[fschifano]

I don't think you'll have a problem with emulsion damage at that temperature. I've accidentally run wash water at temperatures higher than that and observed none because of it. Since developer activity increases with temperature, you will have a problem with short development times. It is best to keep development times for tank processing roll films to 5 minutes or greater to minimize the chance of uneven development and to maximize timing accuracy.

There are several things you can do.

• Use a more dilute developer. Something like D-76 can be used at dilutions up to 1+3. There is not much documentation available for this dilution. As a rough guide, multiply the documented time for a given film in stock d-76 by 2.3 and adjust from there.
• Cool down the developer in the refrigerator. It's a pain, but it works. If you use a sufficient volume of developer, say 1/2 liter or more, the temperature will not rise that much in the few minutes it takes to run the cycle.
• Consult Ilford's time temperature conversion chart here. It's a good guide.
• Wait until winter.

 

[Ian Grant]

Try to get the temperature down a little, 24-25°C is quite easy to manage, I'm working in very similar conditions the other side of the Aegean

My Summer processing is all at 24-25°C and a few ice cubes is enough to control the temperatures of all the solutions, while the daytime temperature has typically been around 36-38° and as high as 42°C recently the tap water is cooler usually 28°C max, so it's not quite so bad.

I am also using Delta 100 & 400 and have no quality problems at all working up to 25°C, I'd be reluctant to go past that.

Ian

 

[Old Micky No 9]

You could also use the zink, a bucket or something similar. Measure up the water to 20-24 degrees, fill the zink or bucket and put your bottles in it for an hour or two. You´ll have to check. Then just develop as normal. Mind, rinsewater at same temp.
As siad above, do try to avoid temperatures above 24 degrees since it results in developingtimes so short you´d get uneven results. Try to avoid under five minutes. Simply, the colder = the longer = the better. Always aim for 20-24 degrees if possible. 28 degrees won´t spoil the film as long as the whole process keeps the same temperature, but it´s just too quick.
Cheers Micky

 

[Venchka]

Kodak knows.

Xtol 1:3
27C
Ilford Delta 100 and 400
9 minutes.

http://wwwfr.kodak.com/AT/plugins/acrobat/de/professional/xtolEntwickler.pdf

Page 11.

Have fun!

 

[Steve Smith]

28 degrees won´t spoil the film as long as the whole process keeps the same temperature, but it´s just too quick.
Cheers Micky

I have never worried about the temperature of my stop bath and fix as I don't think it is important for it to match the developer temperature.

Development is a chemical process taken to a pre-determined point which is controlled by time and temperature. Stop bath and fixer are processes which are taken to completion which do not need to be accurately controlled.


Steve.

 

[PhotoJim]

If the temperatures are too different, you risk reticulation. It's lower risk than it once was, with superior-quality emulsions, but it's still an issue.

Best to keep the temperatures as consistent as possible throughout the process.

 

[Ian Tindale]

Yesterday I put some 100TMX Tmax through in Tmax dev at 26° (as it usually is these past few weeks), and today I put some 400TX Tri-X through the Tmax dev at 27° - turned out nice again.

 

[Steve Smith]

If the temperatures are too different, you risk reticulation. It's lower risk than it once was, with superior-quality emulsions, but it's still an issue.

Best to keep the temperatures as consistent as possible throughout the process.

It has to be quite a wide temperature change to cause reticulation.

My theory is that the film has such a large surface area compared to its volume that as soon as you pour out the developer, it quickly gets to the ambient temperature of the air which has just entered the the tank to replace the developer you have poured out. Therefore it makes more sense to me to have the stop bath and fix at ambient too.


Steve.

 

[Old Micky No 9]

Steve wrote: "Stop bath and fixer are processes which are taken to completion which do not need to be accurately controlled."


You don´t mention any degreess, but as said many times in various books and info-leaflets, fixer don´t work properly under 18 celsius.
Nor does the developer. And besides, which room-temperature are we talking about?
Because, if you got an ambience of maybe 16 celsius and are planning to develop for 10-15 mins in 24 cels, then maybe you´ll end up starting at 24 and ending the development at 21. In cases like this it could be wise to keep the small tank, as I use, in a waterbath between the turnings together with the bottle with fixer. Otherwise you won´t get the right time. Myself I don´t use stopbath, I rinse in runnig water at the same temp as the dev. +- 1-3 cels.
Adams also says in his book "The Negative", that film developed in high temps is prone to scratches and other damages. Maybe not valid anymore with modern emulsions, I don´t know, never tried. My basic aim is just as much consistency as possible from film to film. Which I also think does have to contain some measure of accurate control.

Cheers Micky

 

[Steve Smith]

but as said many times in various books and info-leaflets, fixer don´t work properly under 18 celsius.?

It will not suddenly stop working under 18 degrees, it will just work slower.

And besides, which room-temperature are we talking about?

My room temperature. Usually at least 20 c!


Steve.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

I have never worried about the temperature of my stop bath and fix as I don't think it is important for it to match the developer temperature.
Steve.

I have to agree with PhotoJim, this is bad, bad advice. Lets just say that you have been getting away with it Steve.

Don't try this at home kids!

Stoo

 

[Steve Smith]

Lets just say that you have been getting away with it Steve.

And I will continue getting away with it until I see some actual reason for not doing it. I'm only talking about a drop of two or three degrees anyway and I really can't see how it can make any difference.

I knew my comments would provoke a reaction but all I have ever seen are comments which say you must keep all solutions at the same temperature. I have never seen any reasoning why except for the old reticulation chestnut.


Steve.

 

[Old Micky No 9]

Steve,
I gave you an alternative by talking about having control over the process which of course hopefully leads to the desired print. Personally I don´t want my prints to turn out great by pure luck.
But I think we are allready talking about the same thing anyway, according to your last post.

Cheers Micky

 

[Steve Smith]

My basic aim is just as much consistency as possible from film to film. Which I also think does have to contain some measure of accurate control.

I agree entirely with this bit but it's the development stage which needs to have the control and consistency. Once the development is done, the stop bath and fixer are not going to affect the actual image (as long as the fix is done completely).

Anyway, we have wandered away from the original question of developing at 28 degrees. I suspect that if the manufacturer gives times up to 27 degrees (as Ilford do) then 28 degrees is well within the tolerance of temperature range.

If I had the problem of too high ambient temperature to hold 20 or even 24 degrees then I would test a film out at that temperature and extrapolate the time by extending the curve of the time temperature graph.


Steve.


Steve.

 

[fschifano]

I'm with Steve here. Fact is that it does take a very wide temperature swing to cause reticulation. I have run the process at 18 C. and then had the wash water inadvertantly run up to around 29 to 32 C. No reticulation, none. The negatives looked the same as the ones not subjected to this abuse. No, I didn't use a hardening fixer; and no, I don't recommend the practice either. It just goes to show that modern films are a lot tougher than you think, and that this whole reticulation argument is, for the most part, bogus. A few degrees one way or the other isn't going to ruin anything.

 

[Steve Smith]

The Ilford data sheet for FP4+ states that a hardening fixer is not required at temperatures below 30C.

It also suggests a drying temperature of 30C - 40C so if 40C is o.k. for drying then it should be o.k. for processing (although I wouldn't go that high!).

The same data sheet also suggests that fix and stop should be +/- 5 degrees from the developer temperature so with a development temperature of 20C, 15C to 25C is considered acceptable. What I do is well within these limits.


Steve.

 

[Anon Ymous]

...It also suggests a drying temperature of 30C - 40C so if 40C is o.k. for drying then it should be o.k. for processing (although I wouldn't go that high!)...

Hmmmm, no I don't think so. While I more or less agree with what you say, drying at 40 is totally different to washing at 40C. Soak a piece of film long enough and the emulsion will probably lift. I haven't tried it, but I think I had seen a thread here.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

One thing to keep in mind is that modern films from Ilford, Kodak, and Fuji are pre-hardened and are much more robust than films used to be, so they can take higher processing temperatures and wider temperature swings, though it's still a good idea to keep temperatures relatively uniform between solutions.

Tropical developers usually have a hardener added, and were necessary for older emulsions that could frill or slide off the film or plate at high temperatures. I don't think they're really necessary anymore with modern tech films.

Another consideration is whether the developer can handle the temperature. I discovered that the hard way once when coming back from a trip one summer and having 6 sheets of 4x5" come up blank in my Acufine tank. I later learned that while we were away, the central air conditioning had gone out in the building, so the temperature with the windows closed may have gone up to over 100F while in the apartment.

 

[Steve Smith]

though it's still a good idea to keep temperatures relatively uniform between solutions.

I know I can sound argumentative here but this is advice I read a lot and I really would like to know why. And reticulation is not a valid reason in my opinion.

I'm the sort of person who, when told he must do something a certain way, asks why and what would happen if I did it another way.

So apart from reticulation, are there any real reasons why I can't fix and wash at 16 - 18 degrees (as the water comes out of the tap) instead of the 20 degrees I develop at?

Another consideration is whether the developer can handle the temperature.

That's a good point. Too hot and it may oxidise before it has finished developing.

 

[Ian Grant]

The difference in temperature between each step Dev, Stop-bath, Fixer & wash should be kept within approx 1°C to avoid micro-reticulation. This isn't the same as old fashioned reticulation where the gelatin crazes giving an appearance of extreme grain, it's quite different and usually overlooked.

Micro reticulation also increases the grain size, due to clumping, a sudden change in wet emulsion temperature is enough to cause it. This is a prime reason why some people always get consistently finer grain from a given film/developer combination than others using identical film, developer, exposures etc.

The tighter you're processing controls the closer you are to the highest possibly quality from a film/dveloper combination..

The danger with processing B&W at more than about 25°C is that the emulsion is softer and will be more prone to micro-reticulation with sudden temperature changes, it's then far better to use additional hardening or a tropical developer at higher temperatures to help reduce potential problems, but these are not ideal and less convenient. and it's quite easy to just reduce the temperature a few degrees to allow processing as normal.

Ian