Developing B+W film at 28 Celsius

[Anon Ymous]

Ian, do you know if micro-reticulation is more likely to happen when fixing/washing is done at higher or lower temperatures? I'm clueless, but I have a feeling that it's more likely to happen when fixing/washing at lower temperatures (than the developer). Anyone with a definitive answer out there?

 

[Ian Grant]

I'd guess the same as you, but I try my utmost to keep temperatures tight it's far easier and I use the Ilford wash technique, but at least double the suggested rinse cycles.

There was an article I think in Darkroom Techniques a number of years ago, I read it at the time but never had a copy of my own. All the film manufacturers recommend a reasonably tight control of the process temperatures, but perhaps don't stress it enough.

You can allow washing to drift very slowly to tap water temperature, but one big problem here is that can suddenly vary, so is a possible cause for concern.

Ian

 

[Venchka]

Internet Lore says that Xtol was formulated to tolerate high temperatures. That may explain why the time/temp. charts go up to 29C.

 

[Ian Grant]

You have to take into account that the various film manufacturers emulsions are quite differently hardened. 29°C would destroy some B&W emulsions, they'd float of the support base

Kodak emulsions may well tolerate 29°C but EFKE most certainly won't, the old Forte would be touch & go, so might Foma films without pre-hardening. It's not worth the risks.

Ian

 

[Ian David]

Hi Karin
In Brisbane, where the tap water in my place in summer is generally over 25 degrees C, I keep a big bottle of cold filtered water, a cold bottle of mixed stop and a cold bottle of mixed fix permanently in the fridge. I also keep a bottle of mixed stop and a bottle of mixed fix out of the fridge. Then when I am about to start processing, I make up developer with a mix of tap water and cold water, the stop with a mix from the cold bottle and the warm bottle, and the fix with a mix from the cold bottle and the warm bottle. With a thermometer and a bit of practice it is quick and easy to get all working chemicals to a starting point of 19 or 20 degrees C. If you are using the Ilford wash method, you can also easily enough make up a big bottle of wash water at the start of the session with a mix of tap and cold.
The chem temps don't rise much during the processing of a single batch of films (particularly if you can also get hold of a portable AC unit!).
Ian

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

The chem temps don't rise much during the processing of a single batch of films
Ian

In a typical U.K summer we have to keep an eye on the temerature of the chemicals going down below 20 degrees

 

[Venchka]

Hi Karin
In Brisbane, where the tap water in my place in summer is generally over 25 degrees C, I keep a big bottle of cold filtered water, a cold bottle of mixed stop and a cold bottle of mixed fix permanently in the fridge. I also keep a bottle of mixed stop and a bottle of mixed fix out of the fridge. Then when I am about to start processing, I make up developer with a mix of tap water and cold water, the stop with a mix from the cold bottle and the warm bottle, and the fix with a mix from the cold bottle and the warm bottle. With a thermometer and a bit of practice it is quick and easy to get all working chemicals to a starting point of 19 or 20 degrees C. If you are using the Ilford wash method, you can also easily enough make up a big bottle of wash water at the start of the session with a mix of tap and cold.
The chem temps don't rise much during the processing of a single batch of films (particularly if you can also get hold of a portable AC unit!).
Ian

Exactly. Only I'm in the Swamp-Houston, TX. I keep developer & fix and several bottles of water in the fridge. Dishpan goes in the sink. Cold bottles in the dishpan. Fill with tap water. Everything evens out close to 20C. I adjust with ice or more tap water. When I hit 18C or 19C, I'm good to go. Everything stays the same temp for an hour or more. By the time I'm done the last water for Photo-Flo might be at 22C. Close enough.

 

[clayne]

I have to agree with PhotoJim, this is bad, bad advice. Lets just say that you have been getting away with it Steve.

Don't try this at home kids!

Stoo

Total paranoia. I agree that something like 20C difference isn't the best idea, but a 0-8C or so variance between post-dev chem-steps isn't going to result in anything significant.

 

[Ian Grant]

Total paranoia. I agree that something like 20C difference isn't the best idea, but a 0-8C or so variance between post-dev chem-steps isn't going to result in anything significant.

An 8°C variation is going to cause a significant drop in quality, the degree will vary rom film to film, but you will get an increase in grain due to micro-reticulation/grain clumping.

The difference between excellence and mediocrity is partly in the controls used during processing and exposure, and processing temperatures are particularly important.

In another post Clayne (yesterday) you said loss of a bit of shadow detail isn't important, and here you're saying process control isn't important, both of which seem to suggest you aren't interested in trying to achieve the highest possible quality in your photography.

Ian

 

[clayne]

An 8°C variation is going to cause a significant drop in quality, the degree will vary rom film to film, but you will get an increase in grain due to micro-reticulation/grain clumping.

The difference between excellence and mediocrity is partly in the controls used during processing and exposure, and processing temperatures are particularly important.

In another post Clayne (yesterday) you said loss of a bit of shadow detail isn't important, and here you're saying process control isn't important, both of which seem to suggest you aren't interested in trying to achieve the highest possible quality in your photography.

Ian

As I said in my first post, POST-DEV. I didn't say process control isn't important - because I do believe it to be important (and I do offset my development time based on temperature). But trying to temp balance the stop-bath and fixer to the exact same temp as the dev is going beyond what it is needed.

I do care about quality - but I won't reach for the stars in regulating things to research lab process levels where it is absolutely not needed. As far as "highest possible quality in your photography" goes - I bias my priorities on attempting to create quality images regardless of ultra-stringent lab mechanisms. Which means not endlessly worrying about shadow detail, grainless-ness, or other bullshit details that, at the end of the day, really are only about 5% of the photograph.

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

Total paranoia. I agree that something like 20C difference isn't the best idea, but a 0-8C or so variance between post-dev chem-steps isn't going to result in anything significant.

Clayne

I feel that 'Paranoia' is rather a strong word to use, and while I would agree with you that a variant of + or - 0.8C would result in anything significant, in earlier posts there has been mention of some + or - 5C, with Steve regulary working in a temp difference of + or - 3C.

My last photographic trip involved a drive of 1800 miles, getting up at the crack of dawn each day, and staying out to last light, often sitting for hours, or revisiting a location, just to get the right light, and all at great expense. Personally, when I return home, I don't want to take any risks with my negatives, so as far as I am concerned, there is only one way to work, and there is no room for sloppiness in my development routine. Sloppiness equals laziness.

When joining APUG, it didn't take me long to realize that there are many 'Guru's' here. Fortunately, I chose the right ones to listen to. Those that care about photography here on APUG will know their names, and listen and absorb all that they say. Judging by your statement highlighted below, I would rather listen to anything that Ian Grant has to say, than the so called wisdom that comes from you. As far as I am concerned, shadow detail and the control of grain are as equal as any other creative tool that a photographer has at his/her fingertips.

I bias my priorities on attempting to create quality images regardless of ultra-stringent lab mechanisms. Which means not endlessly worrying about shadow detail, grainless-ness, or other bullshit details that, at the end of the day, really are only about 5% of the photograph.

Have a great weekend

Stoo

 

[Ian Grant]

But trying to temp balance the stop-bath and fixer to the exact same temp as the dev is going beyond what it is needed.

. . . . . . . . . . Which means not endlessly worrying about shadow detail, grainless-ness, or other bullshit details that, at the end of the day, really are only about 5% of the photograph.

It's so easy to keep the temperatures within a degree or so it's a little lazy to not bother. It's a great pity to let poor craftsmanship whether exposure and shadow detail, or temperatures during processing possibly compromise your images when done right it the craft actually gives you greater freedom to shoot what you want knowing you'll get excellent results eaxch time.

Ian

 

[viridari]

My kitchen where I do my MF processing can get pretty warm. Last night the water standing at room temperature was 27 degrees. What I do is take a zip loc sandwich bag, put some ice cubes in it, and float it in the water that I will use for developing until the temperature comes down to 19 or 20 degrees. Then I mix in my developer and proceed. I don't go through this for stop or fix, just for developer.

 

[removed account4]

hi karin

you might do your best to get your temperatures down a little bit.
i had to do a bit of high temperature developer-work a few years ago.
my emulsion ... i didn't worry about reticulation, since i poured it all out
with the anti-halation layer. so ... before you process ALL your film in
high temperatures, do one roll as a test to see how it will work ...
the batch that i mention was 5 rolls ... one of 5 batches i did that way
... the others came out fine ...

you can make a water jacket easily ..
get a deep tray ( like a fixer or developer tray )
and put water in it, then get a cylinder or a bottle,
( you already filled it with water and froze it solid )
stick frozen bottle in the water tray and it will get cold
and stay cold. check the temperature, and mix your developer
hot so it will cool down to the your-right-tempertaure in the water bath

good luck!
john

 

[Ronald Moravec]

water jacket + ice cubes.

The higher temp, the bigger the grain if you campare very carefully. Casual observation will not reveal this.

I would try to cool to 75 F. Load the tank and do it first thing in the morning when most cool.

Chems can go into the frig for 5 to 15 min to bring them down. Put a dial thermometer in the developer and monitor closely.

If you dilute developer, developer at 28 and water at 22 will even out very close to 25.

 

[Ian Grant]

The higher temp, the bigger the grain if you campare very carefully. Casual observation will not reveal this.

Not true, the grain is no different as long as you maintain accurate temperature controls.

However the higher the temperature the more chances of problems if your entire process doesn't keep within tolerances, you will definitely get more apparent grain.

Ian

 

[ajuk]

Why not do it at night and place some water in the fridge so you can mix it with the hotter water to cool it to 20c?

Although you could try the developing film at 92C technique.

 

[clayne]

Not true, the grain is no different as long as you maintain accurate temperature controls.

However the higher the temperature the more chances of problems if your entire process doesn't keep within tolerances, you will definitely get more apparent grain.

Ian

Says who? Are you telling me that you think my stop-bath and fixer not kept stringently to the same temperature as my developer is increasing the grain factor?

Do you allow music in the darkroom? Or are the sound waves explicitly banned for fear of grain clumping your film?

 

[richard ide]

Another "HIM"?

 

[Photo Engineer]

B&W film can be developed at any temperature that does not cause reticulation as long as the proper contrast, speed and grain are obtained by altering agitation and development time. This was discussed by Dickerson and Zawadski in their article in Photo Techniques.

The key is to prevent shocks to the film by having baths and washes at any old temperature. They must be all at the same temperature, and the higher the temperature the more critical control becomes.

PE

 

[Tom Kershaw]

B&W film can be developed at any temperature that does not cause reticulation as long as the proper contrast, speed and grain are obtained by altering agitation and development time. This was discussed by Dickerson and Zawadski in their article in Photo Techniques.

The key is to prevent shocks to the film by having baths and washes at any old temperature. They must be all at the same temperature, and the higher the temperature the more critical control becomes.

PE

So film grain shouldn't change depending on process temperature? My experience with Tetenal Ultrafin in a Jobo was that by reducing development temperature to 20ºC from 22ºC I achieved a significant reduction in grain. Richard Henry comments on grain and development temperature in his book, to the effect that not all film and developer combinations react in the same way to temperature change in relation to grain size.

Tom

 

[Dave Pritchard]

I processed some old exposed film at 100 degrees F (37 deg C).
I thought I was accelerating the development, as the film was old.
The emulsion slid right off the film as I squeegeed it. Does this often happen if film is processed at a high temperature?

 

[Photo Engineer]

So film grain shouldn't change depending on process temperature? My experience with Tetenal Ultrafin in a Jobo was that by reducing development temperature to 20ºC from 22ºC I achieved a significant reduction in grain. Richard Henry comments on grain and development temperature in his book, to the effect that not all film and developer combinations react in the same way to temperature change in relation to grain size.

Tom

Tom;

Do you have a comparison of characteristic curves? Did you alter the agitation cycle?

It can be done! I've seen it done, and I have done it myself.

As for hardness, not all films are made to withstand temperatures above 20 deg C. Kodak, Ilford and Fuji make films that can survive.

PE

 

[clayne]

B&W film can be developed at any temperature that does not cause reticulation as long as the proper contrast, speed and grain are obtained by altering agitation and development time. This was discussed by Dickerson and Zawadski in their article in Photo Techniques.

The key is to prevent shocks to the film by having baths and washes at any old temperature. They must be all at the same temperature, and the higher the temperature the more critical control becomes.

PE

Here's a typical variance for me:

Darkroom - 18C, always. All chemicals used in there are naturally at this temperature for most of the year.
Water - around 16-22C depending on where the faucet balance was at when I filled my stop-bath / rinse jug.

My issue is that people are claiming that I'm going to see significant issues and a loss of quality with variances like the above (2-6C). Of course, I've never seen any such issues using this methodology, and I can't believe that these relatively small gaps in temperature would affect intermediate steps.

I'm not saying balance isn't important, I'm simply saying that pragmatically small differences have never made an effect and I'd be 100x more worried about 20C differences rather than 4C.

Obviously I check my dev temperatures and adjust time accordingly. However, I don't run liters of water around just to hit 20C.

 

[Photo Engineer]

FYI, there are those that argue that the heat generated by a stop bath after development, as it neutralizes the developer will cause grain clumping. This is also untrue! There are so many myths in B&W and Color photography that we are in the middle ages.

If so, I have some Phlogiston here.

Truly, these are unsubstantiated rumors and if true then C-41 and E-6 would not be viable processes.

I have seen the same emulsions hardened for 68F and 100F processed side by side with adjustments to time and agitation, to give the same characteristic curve and speed, and which give the same grain and sharpness. It just takes more care at 100F due to the shorter time and higher agitation required.

PE