Determine Flexicolor replenishment rates for various chemicals

[btaylor]

I think a key here is mshchem’s comment he is getting 55 rolls of film developed in $14 worth of developer. It seems pointless to get into developer replenishment when it’s 25 cents a roll for fresh developer for every roll. Plus test strips and a color densitometer and the knowledge to do something with the results... just sayin’

 

[MingMingPhoto]

mschem has a few decades more of experience than I. I've been doing this only since 2016. Since January 2019 I didn't do C41. I had a problem then with two films being very grainy. I developed a roll of Portra 400 and one Fuji Natura 1600 together in 500mL of Flexicolor dev. I don't know if the developer was at fault or if it is a bad idea to develop different types of film together in a small tank.

So I procrastinated because I don't have the equipment to monitor my solution. Now I just bought a factory new Heiland b/w densitometer and I'm wondering if I can use the colour filters from an ancient 1950s Kodak densitometer (€1 on ebay). There is also a shop that sells Fuji control strips. Kodak strips, colour photochemistry, colour photopaper (even rolls) cannot be bought by mere mortals here. I guess they have no need to do business with everyone.

So that's my backstory. Just so that you know, there are people with much more knowledge here. But they might be busy enjoying the holidays!

Please also note that I edited my previous post. You should use the table in Chapter 3 (table 3-2). I mistakenly look at chapter 2, but IMHO chapter 3 is closer to our type of equipment. Your device is quite nice, but at heart it is rotation development. As you mentioned, the tank is half full. So as the film spiral rotates in the liquid it carries air into it. That is why Kodak is saying you must not replenish, because it is too oxidised. At least that is how I understand that.

Now, your device is a bit special. The tank is standing still in operation and it seems that there is tubing going in for pumping liquids in and out. Perhaps it is possible to rig something to purge the tank with nitrogen while operating. It might not be worth the trouble, though. It all depends on the economy of replenishment vs. single use. I.e. make new solution from replenisher and starter, process an appropriate number of rolls and then discard, repeat.

There is a user here, Adrian, I think. He seems to operate a commercial service using a Jobo. I read he is not replenishing but using fresh developer for each tank with four rolls in it. I guess it is commercially feasible.

For developer I'm a bit scared to replenish blind, even has a hobby user. I managed to do RA4 prints from my films, so it generally worked. But I can't vouch for the quality. Judging colour is not that easy. I will feel better when I can see if I'm drifting off too much and in which direction. Also in future I will use a Patterson tank. It is like my Jobo tank, but instead of inversion I can use a little stick (that comes with the tank) to rotate the inside back and forth. The spiral will rotate completely immersed in developer and will not draw in (much) air. Also the tank will be stationary in the water bath all the time, which will be better for keeping temp.

For bleach I'm using Fuji minilab chemistry, which I got cheap on ebay. I guess someone had old stock around and bleach doesn't really go bad on its own. I have an aquarium air pump with sinter to bubble air through for reoxygenation before use. And since I bought the temperature control device from Cinestill (a sous vide cooking device really) I'm using the stirrer to draw air in while heating it up. I use mine for a while and then discard and mix new, because I don't have the right dilution and rate for replenishment.

For Flexicolor I'd replenish as in table 3-2 and bubble enough air through in between runs. A lot easier than keeping developer alive.

For fixer just follow the replenishment rate in table 3-2. Fixer can oxidise slowly, but with enough turnover and hence replenishment I see no problem. C41 fixer is neutral and not as prone to crashing out sulfur when unused for a long time. That would be a nightmare in your machine. So if you ever offer b/w services as well, I'd still use a neutral fixer, perhaps even the Flexicolor one. Just in case. Z131 also describes how to test for bleach and fix quality using test strips.

So in a nutshell: For bleach and fix following the table blindly might just work fine. I'd keep an eye on bleach and fix quality. That can be done with test strips and a colour densitometer, at least until you know if it is working stable. For developer in a commercial environment I wouldn't use replenishment without having a system to monitor. Follow the table but test and correct when needed.

Thank you so much!!

I'm gonna take your advice. I'm gonna one shot the developer until I get a diff machine that it makes more sense to use with and I'm gonna two shot maybe three shot the bleach and fix. But actually one shot the fix might be fine since they are 10 liter concentrates. But then again I did get advice else where that you can get (I think 10 rolls from 500ml) But I have to double check. I got that form the filmomat group on facebook (posting incase anyone ever wants to know also and they are scouring this forum 20 years from now figuring out how to do this shit too lol)

 

[mshchem]

So to be clear you're using Flexicolor RA bleach and replenishing 8ml per roll of 135-36 right? You're also using a Jobo processor which fills the tank up completely with chemical, 1/4th of the way like the filmomat correct?





Ok ok so I'll deff use that other table. But as for bleach I read that bleach likes to be oxidized; so much so that it should be be put in half filled containers once opened. If this is true, why would I not be allowed to replenish it? Also I hear fixer is stronger and less susceptible than developer to oxidation. If this is the case, AND also that you mentioned you used to blind replenish back in your day then it's safe to say that I can replenish right (from table 3-2)?

Are you basically saying I should just follow that chart to the T? Not to mention I do plan on buying a densitometer soon and also I won't buy test strips but I'm gonna make my own.. but is that a good idea? Because I would do that then just compare each additional test strip to the first one made... or do I really need to buy the official test strips?

I also do want to add that I'm processing film for other people, so I do expect to have many rolls to process in a given week and I do have 1L, .5L and, .25L storage bottles to fit all chemicals.

I just want to spell out everyhting that I have and have everything you guys advise to be spelled out to me too

I'm using:
Filmomat machine (500ml at a time; 1-4 rolls of 135-36, 1-4 rolls of 120, 1-6sheets of 4x5; tank 1/4th full of chemical, constant agitation) so I'll use table 3-2
I'm using Flexicolor LORR dev starter, Flexicolor LU developer and replenisher(a,b,c), Flexicolor RA Bleach replenisher NR, Flexicolor RA fixer and replenisher
I have pleanty of 1L, .5L and, .25L glass bottles to store chemicals in.

What would be my best move to make these chemicals last the longest and also to get a as much as I could from them?

To follow the chart yes, but since bleach oxidize and likes it shouldn't I be able to sue it a few times?

Also should I mix all chemcails and make working solutons or should I jsut make what i need of each chemical?

Sorry for all the questions, but if you have the time please helppppppp

OK. ... NOT TO MAKE THINGS MORE COMPLICATED. You are using a rotary tube processor. You are using Kodak process cycle C-41RA. This uses the chemistry that is used in modern minilabs that require roughly 7 1/2 minutes to run through a Noritsu of Fuji Frontier machine. Consider these to be constant agitation.

So, all C-41 processes, Developer is 100°F 3'15" this needs to be exact . Bleach C-41RA @ 100°F requires minimum of 1 minute . C-41RA Bleach can be used in older processors that bleach for longer periods, so don't panic about going over 1 minute, Bleach requires oxygen, if you don't use it for a while shake it vigorously to get some O2 into solution.

Next up is C-41RA Fixer. This should run 2 minutes @100°F, again with color film you want to remove all residual silver so, if you go over a bit no problem.

Now, if you are running a minilab you go through 3 countercurrent final rinse cycles. But we are going to use water to wash away the fixer. Wash for 2 minutes using as many washes as possible. When I am using a Jobo I wash off the processor in 100°F running water, fill and dump 5 or 6 times in 3-4 minutes.

Finally, I take each reel individually and shake as much water off the Jobo reel, and then immerse the Jobo reel in Flexicolor Final Rinse, not stabilizer, for 30 seconds to a minute with constant gentle agitation using a short Jobo center core to gently lift and drop. Don't make suds!, use distilled water for the final rinse, carefully shake the excess Final Rinse off the reel then hang.

Don't touch the film with anything. Don't use heat or blowers to dry. Just walk away. Don't use PhotoFlo. The final rinse contains an environmentally friendly biocide, to prevent fungi from eating the gelatin emulsion on the film, when I was a kid it was formaldehyde, nasty stuff.

Kodak spells out very clearly not to attempt to replenish or reuse any of the solutions when using a rotary processor. Period! This is on Z-131 section 3 page 6.

I admit I don't throw away the bleach. It seems nuts. However I don't reuse the developer or fixer.

NOW FOR THIS FANCY MACHINE YOU HAVE. If I understand correctly the tank uses 500mL, 1 reel or 4 reels. So you need to figure out what to do if you want to run 1 reel? Replenish? Run to capacity etc.

My Jobo rotary tube processor uses small, medium, large, extra large tanks, so you only need 110 mL in a 1510 tank to process 1 roll of 35mm. The Filmomat uses a single sized tank.

Now back to replenishing Bleach . We need to jump over to Kodak Z-100 manual, section 2, page 2 you can find replenishment rates Kodak Flexicolor C-41RA BLEACH IS RATED AT 3.1 mL of REPLENISHER, per meter of 35mm film. There's replenishment rates for other solutions there as well.
I would need to check my notes. But as a rule I error on the side of caution and use fresh solutions. Cheapest part of the analog workflow is chemistry!
Replenishment needs to be monitored. If you don't watch carefully you will get in trouble.

 

[mshchem]

mschem has a few decades more of experience than I. I've been doing this only since 2016. Since January 2019 I didn't do C41. I had a problem then with two films being very grainy. I developed a roll of Portra 400 and one Fuji Natura 1600 together in 500mL of Flexicolor dev. I don't know if the developer was at fault or if it is a bad idea to develop different types of film together in a small tank.

So I procrastinated because I don't have the equipment to monitor my solution. Now I just bought a factory new Heiland b/w densitometer and I'm wondering if I can use the colour filters from an ancient 1950s Kodak densitometer (€1 on ebay). There is also a shop that sells Fuji control strips. Kodak strips, colour photochemistry, colour photopaper (even rolls) cannot be bought by mere mortals here. I guess they have no need to do business with everyone.

So that's my backstory. Just so that you know, there are people with much more knowledge here. But they might be busy enjoying the holidays!

Please also note that I edited my previous post. You should use the table in Chapter 3 (table 3-2). I mistakenly look at chapter 2, but IMHO chapter 3 is closer to our type of equipment. Your device is quite nice, but at heart it is rotation development. As you mentioned, the tank is half full. So as the film spiral rotates in the liquid it carries air into it. That is why Kodak is saying you must not replenish, because it is too oxidised. At least that is how I understand that.

Now, your device is a bit special. The tank is standing still in operation and it seems that there is tubing going in for pumping liquids in and out. Perhaps it is possible to rig something to purge the tank with nitrogen while operating. It might not be worth the trouble, though. It all depends on the economy of replenishment vs. single use. I.e. make new solution from replenisher and starter, process an appropriate number of rolls and then discard, repeat.

There is a user here, Adrian, I think. He seems to operate a commercial service using a Jobo. I read he is not replenishing but using fresh developer for each tank with four rolls in it. I guess it is commercially feasible.

For developer I'm a bit scared to replenish blind, even has a hobby user. I managed to do RA4 prints from my films, so it generally worked. But I can't vouch for the quality. Judging colour is not that easy. I will feel better when I can see if I'm drifting off too much and in which direction. Also in future I will use a Patterson tank. It is like my Jobo tank, but instead of inversion I can use a little stick (that comes with the tank) to rotate the inside back and forth. The spiral will rotate completely immersed in developer and will not draw in (much) air. Also the tank will be stationary in the water bath all the time, which will be better for keeping temp.

For bleach I'm using Fuji minilab chemistry, which I got cheap on ebay. I guess someone had old stock around and bleach doesn't really go bad on its own. I have an aquarium air pump with sinter to bubble air through for reoxygenation before use. And since I bought the temperature control device from Cinestill (a sous vide cooking device really) I'm using the stirrer to draw air in while heating it up. I use mine for a while and then discard and mix new, because I don't have the right dilution and rate for replenishment.

For Flexicolor I'd replenish as in table 3-2 and bubble enough air through in between runs. A lot easier than keeping developer alive.

For fixer just follow the replenishment rate in table 3-2. Fixer can oxidise slowly, but with enough turnover and hence replenishment I see no problem. C41 fixer is neutral and not as prone to crashing out sulfur when unused for a long time. That would be a nightmare in your machine. So if you ever offer b/w services as well, I'd still use a neutral fixer, perhaps even the Flexicolor one. Just in case. Z131 also describes how to test for bleach and fix quality using test strips.

So in a nutshell: For bleach and fix following the table blindly might just work fine. I'd keep an eye on bleach and fix quality. That can be done with test strips and a colour densitometer, at least until you know if it is working stable. For developer in a commercial environment I wouldn't use replenishment without having a system to monitor. Follow the table but test and correct when needed.

All well thought out. Before I bought the damned Jobo contraptions I used a Paterson tank for C-41, but mostly for E6 worked great, I used aquarium heaters. The aquarium pump is a great idea for bleach. I wouldn't replenish the fixer either. Fuji sells a Universal fixer for C41 and E6, heck, you could use it for anything. It's all ammonium thiosulfate. Fixer is cheap, in big containers, but it goes bad if left exposed to air. I repack into full bottles. You will know it when fixer goes bad, stinks of sulfur dioxide and elemental sulfur will cloud things. I'm old, but that doesn't make me an expert. My first color development experiment was when I was in 8th grade, Kodak process E3, I wrote a letter to Kodak because the stuff didn't come with instructions. Some nice engineer must of spent 2 hours Xeroxing copies of manuals for me. I got a package about 1 inch thick from Rochester, it was so much fun. There were no plastic bottles back then, I raided my Mom's pickle jars found the required 1/2 gallon bottles. That actually required a reversal exposure, held the reel in front of a photo flood before the color developer . Instructions said be careful not to drip on the lamp and blow yourself up.. That was a single roll of Ektachrome in my 1ST Paterson tank. The emulsion was so soft you could scrape it off with a fingernail, but the color, dazzling!

 

[mshchem]

I think a key here is mshchem’s comment he is getting 55 rolls of film developed in $14 worth of developer. It seems pointless to get into developer replenishment when it’s 25 cents a roll for fresh developer for every roll. Plus test strips and a color densitometer and the knowledge to do something with the results... just sayin’

I had a friend who had a shop give me a really nice Xrite color densitometer, required older Windows software to run, but I gave it back to him. No fun.

 

[mshchem]

LMAOOOO
Yeah it's pretty damn dope :')

shout out lukas! for inventing it.

Yeah, these young inventors are the key to the future of analog. Especially darkroom stuff. This thing is amazing.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I think a key here is mshchem’s comment he is getting 55 rolls of film developed in $14 worth of developer. It seems pointless to get into developer replenishment when it’s 25 cents a roll for fresh developer for every roll. Plus test strips and a color densitometer and the knowledge to do something with the results... just sayin’

Ah I didn't see this at first, but Yeah man you're totally right. I honestly just assumed that it cost a lot of money to use bleach and fix and such as one shot but it atually is all under 200 with shipping. I'm tryna run a business processing film for people so I'm trying to keep costs low and since I was switching and this is slight more exspeonsive than what I was using before I jsut assumed the price per roll was astronomical. lol... But now that I have an idea of how many rolls can be got from each chemical and the general properties of each I feel more comfortable. I have them al sitting here waiting to be bottled up.

I'm going to bottle up ALL the 5 Liters of developer replenisher once I open it because I hear part C goes bad quickly if it is not all mixed up together after being open.

I'm going to keep thebleach in it's orginail container even when opened so it gets o2

I'm gonna do the same for the fixer I think, but I have to double check if leaving it in the original container is bad or if I should bottle it up in it's own bottles like the dev replenisher

The dev starter I'm gonna just keep in it's original bottle, I hear it stays good for a year or maybe it was six months.

I'm still nervous but I'm gonna jsut do this for now and I'm going to do a 10ml replenish on the bleach with each roll and I'll prob use the fix twice then toss. I'll figure it out

 

[MingMingPhoto]

OK. ... NOT TO MAKE THINGS MORE COMPLICATED. You are using a rotary tube processor. You are using Kodak process cycle C-41RA. This uses the chemistry that is used in modern minilabs that require roughly 7 1/2 minutes to run through a Noritsu of Fuji Frontier machine. Consider these to be constant agitation.

So, all C-41 processes, Developer is 100°F 3'15" this needs to be exact . Bleach C-41RA @ 100°F requires minimum of 1 minute . C-41RA Bleach can be used in older processors that bleach for longer periods, so don't panic about going over 1 minute, Bleach requires oxygen, if you don't use it for a while shake it vigorously to get some O2 into solution.

Next up is C-41RA Fixer. This should run 2 minutes @100°F, again with color film you want to remove all residual silver so, if you go over a bit no problem.

Now, if you are running a minilab you go through 3 countercurrent final rinse cycles. But we are going to use water to wash away the fixer. Wash for 2 minutes using as many washes as possible. When I am using a Jobo I wash off the processor in 100°F running water, fill and dump 5 or 6 times in 3-4 minutes.

Finally, I take each reel individually and shake as much water off the Jobo reel, and then immerse the Jobo reel in Flexicolor Final Rinse, not stabilizer, for 30 seconds to a minute with constant gentle agitation using a short Jobo center core to gently lift and drop. Don't make suds!, use distilled water for the final rinse, carefully shake the excess Final Rinse off the reel then hang.

Don't touch the film with anything. Don't use heat or blowers to dry. Just walk away. Don't use PhotoFlo. The final rinse contains an environmentally friendly biocide, to prevent fungi from eating the gelatin emulsion on the film, when I was a kid it was formaldehyde, nasty stuff.

Kodak spells out very clearly not to attempt to replenish or reuse any of the solutions when using a rotary processor. Period! This is on Z-131 section 3 page 6.

I admit I don't throw away the bleach. It seems nuts. However I don't reuse the developer or fixer.

NOW FOR THIS FANCY MACHINE YOU HAVE. If I understand correctly the tank uses 500mL, 1 reel or 4 reels. So you need to figure out what to do if you want to run 1 reel? Replenish? Run to capacity etc.

My Jobo rotary tube processor uses small, medium, large, extra large tanks, so you only need 110 mL in a 1510 tank to process 1 roll of 35mm. The Filmomat uses a single sized tank.

Now back to replenishing Bleach . We need to jump over to Kodak Z-100 manual, section 2, page 2 you can find replenishment rates Kodak Flexicolor C-41RA BLEACH IS RATED AT 3.1 mL of REPLENISHER, per meter of 35mm film. There's replenishment rates for other solutions there as well.
I would need to check my notes. But as a rule I error on the side of caution and use fresh solutions. Cheapest part of the analog workflow is chemistry!
Replenishment needs to be monitored. If you don't watch carefully you will get in trouble.

For the Final rinse I've been getting good results (I have been using final rinse for a little while now with other chemistry kits) even when I put it in my hand made, , film dryer (it has a fan and a lightbulb for heat, designed after this video from youtube of some old guy doing his thing).

I wish I could run consecutive final rinse baths back to back form the machine but since I can't I've been using my hand made, , film washer (circular container that fits snug on all four reels and put it in my bathtub and the water drains fast but slow enough out the bottom) for five min, then washing out the tank and fixing in the final rinse for at leaste a min.

And yeah I knowwww they say that but I wanna be defiant (the part about not repleanishing) with the bleach. KLike you said it last mad long and the fix too Ifeel like it can be done so I'm gonna try.

Sooooo the hting with the one reel, if I get only one roll I usually (with my tetenal kit) run all the hemistry then just re bottle it and use it again to it's max amount (8 rolls or 15 if I do an extended processing time). I feel like this would work with the flexicolor LU dev repleinsher too no? It should be able to handle getting airated for 3:15 with jsut one roll and bounce back within 4 weeks of being in a fully capped bottle I feel like. But only time will tell



But YOOOOOO
THANK YOU ALL SOSOMSDONFIASDM MUCHHHISDH IASNFIOSDFDS OJYOU GUYA HAVE BEE NSO AMZING!!!!IFAPF

All well thought out. Before I bought the damned Jobo contraptions I used a Paterson tank for C-41, but mostly for E6 worked great, I used aquarium heaters. The aquarium pump is a great idea for bleach. I wouldn't replenish the fixer either. Fuji sells a Universal fixer for C41 and E6, heck, you could use it for anything. It's all ammonium thiosulfate. Fixer is cheap, in big containers, but it goes bad if left exposed to air. I repack into full bottles. You will know it when fixer goes bad, stinks of sulfur dioxide and elemental sulfur will cloud things. I'm old, but that doesn't make me an expert. My first color development experiment was when I was in 8th grade, Kodak process E3, I wrote a letter to Kodak because the stuff didn't come with instructions. Some nice engineer must of spent 2 hours Xeroxing copies of manuals for me. I got a package about 1 inch thick from Rochester, it was so much fun. There were no plastic bottles back then, I raided my Mom's pickle jars found the required 1/2 gallon bottles. That actually required a reversal exposure, held the reel in front of a photo flood before the color developer . Instructions said be careful not to drip on the lamp and blow yourself up.. That was a single roll of Ektachrome in my 1ST Paterson tank. The emulsion was so soft you could scrape it off with a fingernail, but the color, dazzling!

OMG I LOVE THIS STORY. I love when ppl go and do things like this. Question though, fixer... can it be used with black and white AND c-41? Like is it all LITTERALLY the same?

And lol that engineer dind't do that, they had an unpaid intern (or maybe paid back in thsoe days) photocopy all of those for you . but OMG the bottles I used for my tetenal kits were recycled Kumbucha bottles. They have the nice plastic on the underside of their lids since they do creat gass and stuff. Since I new when I was gonna buy this machine and the chem I was gonna break my bank I had to save up on spending another 100 on bottles. Shout out to us for bottle recylcing

I had a friend who had a shop give me a really nice Xrite color densitometer, required older Windows software to run, but I gave it back to him. No fun.

Can I have it?....

Yeah, these young inventors are the key to the future of analog. Especially darkroom stuff. This thing is amazing.

Big facts, Everything is becoming more accesible in all industries which I love. I jsut hope the governemnts around the world don't try to begin reducing free info and all these means of whatever.

 

[mshchem]

Fixer, "rapid fixer" is ammonium thiosulfate. For C-41 and E6 Fuji makes a product, it was called Unilec, this is what is sold today
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186255-REG/fujifilm_600005467_universal_color_fixer.html
This is $70 for a 5 gallon cubitainer (it's like a wine bladder, plastic flexible container inside a cardboard box. It's cheaper at Unique 50 dollars. This is 5 gallons of ammonium thiosulfate solution that is suitable for fixing color films. Makes 25 gallons of working solution. This replenishes at about 20mL (of the concentrate) a roll so that's almost 1000 36 exposure rolls. You might want to check my math. Black and white fixer is pretty much the same, usually standard fixers contain acid to harden the emulsion, Ilford has eliminated hardener but these fixer baths are still required to be acidic to work, thus acid stop baths especially for fiber paper that carries over alkaline developer if a stop isn't used.
There's a terrific fixer that is alkaline. TF-4 fixer. I'm old fashioned I still buy acid hardening Kodak Rapid fixer. I use a heated drum dryer for fiber base prints and without the extra hardener the prints stick to the dryer.

 

[MattKing]

I'm old fashioned I still buy acid hardening Kodak Rapid fixer.

I buy the same and don't add the hardener - it works great without it.
I use the separate little bottles of hardener when I tone prints - when you use some toners your prints benefit from hardener.

 

[mshchem]

I buy the same and don't add the hardener - it works great without it.
I use the separate little bottles of hardener when I tone prints - when you use some toners your prints benefit from hardener.

Yes Matt I do similar. If I don't intend to tone I add the hardener to the fixer. Otherwise I mix separate hardener for after toning. Even film strength hardening Rapid fix isn't enough after strong Se or stinky sulfide toners it just softens the gelatin too much. I have mixed the little bottles, and made from scratch. Of course the best hardeners are formaldehyde or stuff that contains hexavalent chromium, I've left that behind for years. I just finished a bottle of Hypam fixer, no hardener. Definitely don't need hardener for film and rc prints. I don't know how the manufacturers have developed pre-hardened film emulsion, but it's an amazing difference from the old days.

 

[lantau]

We're getting off-topic, but I guess the original topic has been discussed to the satisfaction of the OP.

So yes, use C41 fixer, or that Fuji universal colour fixer, for everything. Just don't use any other fixers for your colour process. Acidic fixer will damage the dyes, and a simple neutral fixer may not be as efficient as the C41 stuff, which contains some more advanced fixing compounds.

I've become a fixer extremist. I don't consider Sodium thiosulfate based solutions to be even called fixer anymore. When humanity had nothing else ok, but today it isn't. There's no reason to use it, except if you can't get the good stuff on your deserted island.

The next thing is acidic rapid fixers. There's almost no reason why someone with at least a little experience needs to use it. If you still have some old films (Efke?) in the freezer, which require a hardening fixer that's pretty much all I can think about. Otherwise just use neutral fixer, or even alkaline. Best thing since sliced bread.

Adox is still a defender of acid fixer. I don't like it but they have a reason. They sell to a lot of people new to film development. Acid fixer will prevent any problems with stopping the developer. That makes it much easier for their customer support. And they do sell Rollei neutral fix, which is cheap. Especially in the 5L container. Even better would be if they licensed TF-5 for the European market. That stuff would give me ultimate piece of mind.

If you're working with FB paper I'd consider non acidic fix a necessity. With neutral rapid fixer FB paper won't need more than 10-15 minutes to wash. Maybe 20 minutes if you're selling. Just to be extra sure. Wash it for ever and start wondering why it is so hard to get it flat...

And for those still using hypo (Sodium), well the paper base will be beyond help by the time it is all out. That is why I don't even say fixer to that ancient product . It's not fit for purpose. It worked well enough in the old days, but then I also think the fear of too much hypo in FB prints is overrated. I guess there were tons of prints made that were not 'archival' by that standard. And I'm sure that most still look good today, more than half a century later.

As an anecdote. I was using test solution on my prints and realised that I was a bit over optimistic with short washing times. So 5-8 minutes in my Nova wash slot isn't quite enough. while 15 minutes was. And it seems right what I found in a very large fixing article (vortex was in the title, an English web page I believe): It is the Baryta layer that retains fixer. Even after the shorter time when the test was still positive if found inside of the paper to be clean. I was tearing up a sheet and it teared along the paper layers. So I could add a drop literally in the middle of the paper. No reaction. I guess thiosulfate has a high affinity to Barium and adsorbs to the baryta base. RC paper is using Titanium oxide. That does not seem to retain fixer.

My prints go through Adostab/Sistan at the end. So wash times may not matter much for me, anyway.

Also I have two FB flatbed dryers. I bought the first, a czech model, on ebay when I started buying dark room gear. Got the second, a Kaiser, as a gift when someone disposed of his darkroom stuff. Haven't used them yet, because it turned out to be so easy to get FB flat. But when I finally do I will still use my neutral fixer and go through the normal process and harden just before the final Sistan rinse. I bought a bottle of Moersch hardener for that. This allows an efficient wash after fixing. After hardening in an extra step I'll need to wash again. But I won't need to worry about retained fixer.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Fixer, "rapid fixer" is ammonium thiosulfate. For C-41 and E6 Fuji makes a product, it was called Unilec, this is what is sold today
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186255-REG/fujifilm_600005467_universal_color_fixer.html
This is $70 for a 5 gallon cubitainer (it's like a wine bladder, plastic flexible container inside a cardboard box. It's cheaper at Unique 50 dollars. This is 5 gallons of ammonium thiosulfate solution that is suitable for fixing color films. Makes 25 gallons of working solution. This replenishes at about 20mL (of the concentrate) a roll so that's almost 1000 36 exposure rolls. You might want to check my math. Black and white fixer is pretty much the same, usually standard fixers contain acid to harden the emulsion, Ilford has eliminated hardener but these fixer baths are still required to be acidic to work, thus acid stop baths especially for fiber paper that carries over alkaline developer if a stop isn't used.
There's a terrific fixer that is alkaline. TF-4 fixer. I'm old fashioned I still buy acid hardening Kodak Rapid fixer. I use a heated drum dryer for fiber base prints and without the extra hardener the prints stick to the dryer.

You kinda lost me with the fixer talk. I can't distinguish what from what.

Are you saying:

c41 and e6 fixer is the same. They all contain chemical "X" and chemical "Y"

Black and white fixers come in two types. Type A has a hardener which is only necessary for old films and has absolutly no benefit today with new films, and type b is just a but of Chemical "y"

Becasue c41 and e6 Fixers contain chemical X and Y they are also able to be used to fix Black and white Films.

So c41 and e6 fixers can be used on black and whitefilm also



but also, hypo check is only suitable for testing fixer for film processing not for print processing because by the time it has detected much silver in it it has nto been workable since a little before.

Are you also saying that acid fixers are another type of ONLY black and white fixer that are used when printing, and that's becasue they match the acid level of the developer or stop bath so it makes them last longer but wash out harder?

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Yes Matt I do similar. If I don't intend to tone I add the hardener to the fixer. Otherwise I mix separate hardener for after toning. Even film strength hardening Rapid fix isn't enough after strong Se or stinky sulfide toners it just softens the gelatin too much. I have mixed the little bottles, and made from scratch. Of course the best hardeners are formaldehyde or stuff that contains hexavalent chromium, I've left that behind for years. I just finished a bottle of Hypam fixer, no hardener. Definitely don't need hardener for film and rc prints. I don't know how the manufacturers have developed pre-hardened film emulsion, but it's an amazing difference from the old days.

So hardening fixer is used when toning prints to keep the emulsion hard?
What are al the types of fixer for both black & white film, b&w paper, Color (c41 and e6 [even though I take it e6 don't exist anymore yet]) papers and, color film?

And what are the uses of each fixer type?

 

[mshchem]

You kinda lost me with the fixer talk. I can't distinguish what from what.

Are you saying:

c41 and e6 fixer is the same. They all contain chemical "X" and chemical "Y"

Black and white fixers come in two types. Type A has a hardener which is only necessary for old films and has absolutly no benefit today with new films, and type b is just a but of Chemical "y"

Becasue c41 and e6 Fixers contain chemical X and Y they are also able to be used to fix Black and white Films.

So c41 and e6 fixers can be used on black and whitefilm also



but also, hypo check is only suitable for testing fixer for film processing not for print processing because by the time it has detected much silver in it it has nto been workable since a little before.

Are you also saying that acid fixers are another type of ONLY black and white fixer that are used when printing, and that's becasue they match the acid level of the developer or stop bath so it makes them last longer but wash out harder?

Fuji sells fixer that will work with C41 and E6. E6 is harder on the fixer. Requires higher replenish rate

 

[MattKing]

So hardening fixer is used when toning prints to keep the emulsion hard?
What are al the types of fixer for both black & white film, b&w paper, Color (c41 and e6 [even though I take it e6 don't exist anymore yet]) papers and, color film?

And what are the uses of each fixer type?

There are or were six uses for photographic fixer:
1) standard black and white film and paper;
2) colour negative film* processed in C41;
3) colour slide film processed in E6;
4) colour paper processed in RA4; and
5) the no longer produced paper designed for print from slides.
The different types of fixer are adjusted to work best with the materials they are designed for. In some cases, one type of fixer will also work with other types of materials - C41 fixer can be used with black and white materials being an example - but if you want to be safe, use the fixer designed for the material you are developing.
Within the types of materials - in particular the black and white materials - there are also choices. The discussion above about acidic fixers and hardeners relates to the fact that older types of films had fragile emulsions that benefitted from hardening, and prints that have been toned in certain ways also have emulsions that benefit from hardening. Hardening requires an acidic environment.
* includes B&W film designed for colour chemicals - Ilford XP2

 

[MingMingPhoto]

There are or were six uses for photographic fixer:
1) standard black and white film and paper;
2) colour negative film* processed in C41;
3) colour slide film processed in E6;
4) colour paper processed in RA4; and
5) the no longer produced paper designed for print from slides.
The different types of fixer are adjusted to work best with the materials they are designed for. In some cases, one type of fixer will also work with other types of materials - C41 fixer can be used with black and white materials being an example - but if you want to be safe, use the fixer designed for the material you are developing.
Within the types of materials - in particular the black and white materials - there are also choices. The discussion above about acidic fixers and hardeners relates to the fact that older types of films had fragile emulsions that benefitted from hardening, and prints that have been toned in certain ways also have emulsions that benefit from hardening. Hardening requires an acidic environment.
* includes B&W film designed for colour chemicals - Ilford XP2

Thank you so much <3

Fuji sells fixer that will work with C41 and E6. E6 is harder on the fixer. Requires higher replenish rate

Ah okay