Demographics of film Vs digital

[warden]

It is kind of a silly discussion, but judging from the past, I bet this will go at least 10 pages.

I'll bet a large order of fries that it'll go further than ten pages. This thread has everything: young vs old, pro vs amateur, film vs digital, married vs free, etc. Lots of ways to divide and argue. We're only on the first page and already the "didn't you even read it" comments are present.

No thanks, I'll skip it.

 

[jim10219]

I went to two different photography clubs in my area. Both were comprised of almost entirely retired people. I'd guess most lived in the same house they had for the last ten years and weren't planning on moving anytime soon. Every single one of them shot digital, and almost seemed to get angry with me when I told them I shot film. They kept trying to argue with me that digital was better in every way. They couldn't wrap their head around why someone would choose to shoot film in this day and age. Needless to say I didn't go back to either.

The only other film shooter in my area that I know rents a house, is single, and does not have steady income. I know a few professional digital shooters in similar situations.

I'm steadily employed, happily married, rent a house, and shoot both.

So I guess I haven't personally seen any correlation between those life situations and film vs digital. Though I will say my experience with other film shooters is rather small. Most film shooters I meet, I meet while traveling and don't really get to know.

 

[mooseontheloose]

In the past 25 years I've lived in 20 different locations, I guess that makes me unstable. But I have a full-time job with a predictable salary, will probably rent the rest of my life, single (but not changing partners), no plans to be professional in any way, and I shoot film and have an enlarger in my spare bedroom for printing. I use my phone for every day stuff but film for the important things. I love the darkroom and the only reason I would want to own my own home is so that I could build a purpose-built darkroom for myself there. So I think I hit the descriptors for both groups. Like the others have said, not everything is so black and white and your generalizations tend to pigeon-hole people into one kind of life. We are not either/or.

Also, I would say, having lived in Japan off and on for nearly 15 years, that it is a lot less stable than it was in the past. People are not getting married and/or having children because salaries have not increased in decades and people can't afford to do either (or wait until they have enough money to do so, by then it's too late). The younger generation is single and there are a lot of virgins out there (over 40% of 18-35 year-olds - both sexes, and 25% of men over 30) - dating seems problematic here and people are happier spending time with their friends rather than navigating the dating pool (or they work such long hours it's almost impossible to meet/see someone). The population is set to drop from 127 million (at its peak a couple years ago) to about 100 million in 2050 because the country is super-aged and not enough young people are being born (not a new problem, the government has been aware of this since the 1970s, but have not implemented any real changes to deal with this issue). And yes, the younger generation practically lives on their phones, but it's also the younger generation that I see using film - not that often, but when I do, it's definitely not the older, more stable generation. Those old guys (and it's always old guys) switched over to the latest and greatest digital stuff years ago and have not looked back since.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

If you're on-the-move life-wise, entrepreneurial, unsettled, disrupted, adventurous...renting, change partners, are open to changing location...professional photog or aspiring to being professional: you shoot digital (or shoot and scan film) and you inkjet print if you print at all.

If you're stable, own your home, predictable salary or solidly retired, long-married: you shoot film and enlarge film, hang out in a darkroom...unless you are happy with convenient mini-labs.

What are your thoughts/prejudices/experiences?

???

 

[guangong]

May depend on your region. Japan is reportedly much more stable than the US. Don't know about the UK or EU or Subcontinent or China etc. Or Norway/Sweden.

Most of the stable people I know in New Mexico are Navajo Indians and, recently, elderly Jews (lots of friends with both groups) .

I've read that Millennials marry less frequently than same age did in earlier generations...and we do know that most Boomers have been (once or twice) divorced.

Japan is stable? Are we talking geology, economics, society or personal life? If the latter, Japan may have the least stable personal lives of any on your list. Love hotels for quickies...for those younger people still interested in sex. Huge percentage of Japanese adults are still virgins. Marriage rate extremely low. Aged population with very low birth rate among those of fertile ages. Japan may be the first modern nation to abort themselves to near extinction. Stable?
Like others have noted already, those among my friends most committed to digital are the stodgy home bound.
The attraction to digital appeals to all demographic groups.

 

[jtk]

Hmmm...no. What I said is that I don't think that your model really describes reality very well.

OK...how about proposing another "reality" that you may be aware of, perhaps a simpler one, that involves decisions to operate darkrooms as opposed to not operating darkrooms?

( Fwiw I operated darkrooms until I learned to use an excellent inkjet printer and scanner, continue to shoot film...but less frequently after obtaining a Pentax K20d.).

 

[jtk]

I went to two different photography clubs in my area. Both were comprised of almost entirely retired people. I'd guess most lived in the same house they had for the last ten years and weren't planning on moving anytime soon. Every single one of them shot digital, and almost seemed to get angry with me when I told them I shot film. They kept trying to argue with me that digital was better in every way. They couldn't wrap their head around why someone would choose to shoot film in this day and age. Needless to say I didn't go back to either.

The only other film shooter in my area that I know rents a house, is single, and does not have steady income. I know a few professional digital shooters in similar situations.

I'm steadily employed, happily married, rent a house, and shoot both.

So I guess I haven't personally seen any correlation between those life situations and film vs digital. Though I will say my experience with other film shooters is rather small. Most film shooters I meet, I meet while traveling and don't really get to know.

Jim, Interesting... I'm aware of two clubs here. The huge one has excellent presentations by nationally well-known photographers but is technically judgemental and seems Photoshop obsessed. The small one is an exclusively film photo club that is more interested in film cameras than prints.....or even imagery.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Well, I have counterexamples: both myself and an ex-coworker are now retired from well-paying engineering jobs that we'd had for decades, we own our homes outright and are free to travel. I am ~90% analog in my photography because I like the process of using film cameras and film; he is 100% digitial and "will never go back to film".

... Marriage rate extremely low. Aged population with very low birth rate among those of fertile ages. Japan may be the first modern nation to abort themselves to near extinction. ...

Wow. That is sad. I suppose that a lot of high-quality film cameras will come on the market as a consequence, but it's still sad.


P.S. I can't remember the last time I saw someone making photos with an actual camera, either film or digital. It's been years.

 

[jtk]

I went to two different photography clubs in my area. Both were comprised of almost entirely retired people. I'd guess most lived in the same house they had for the last ten years and weren't planning on moving anytime soon. Every single one of them shot digital, and almost seemed to get angry with me when I told them I shot film. They kept trying to argue with me that digital was better in every way. They couldn't wrap their head around why someone would choose to shoot film in this day and age. Needless to say I didn't go back to either.

The only other film shooter in my area that I know rents a house, is single, and does not have steady income. I know a few professional digital shooters in similar situations.

I'm steadily employed, happily married, rent a house, and shoot both.

So I guess I haven't personally seen any correlation between those life situations and film vs digital. Though I will say my experience with other film shooters is rather small. Most film shooters I meet, I meet while traveling and don't really get to know.

Jim, Interesting... I'm aware of two clubs here. The huge one has excellent presentations by nationally well-known photographers but is technically judgemental and seems Photoshop obsessed. The small one is an exclusively film photo club that is more interested in film cameras than prints.....or even imagery.

 

[jtk]

Well, I have counterexamples: both myself and an ex-coworker are now retired from well-paying engineering jobs that we'd had for decades, we own our homes outright and are free to travel. I am ~90% analog in my photography because I like the process of using film cameras and film; he is 100% digitial and "will never go back to film".

Fwiw I don't think of film as going back but young people might.


Wow. That is sad. I suppose that a lot of high-quality film cameras will come on the market as a consequence, but it's still sad.

See eBay for the glut of Nikon and Leica film cameras from Japan .

 

[jtk]

Japan is stable? Are we talking geology, economics, society or personal life? If the latter, Japan may have the least stable personal lives of any on your list. Love hotels for quickies...for those younger people still interested in sex. Huge percentage of Japanese adults are still virgins. Marriage rate extremely low. Aged population with very low birth rate among those of fertile ages. Japan may be the first modern nation to abort themselves to near extinction. Stable?
Like others have noted already, those among my friends most committed to digital are the stodgy home bound.
The attraction to digital appeals to all demographic groups.[/QUOTE

OK, what about darkrooms?

 

[Luckless]

My personal experience was that I was young, single, renting, with questionable tech income in a locally soft market when I got into digital photography. My life conditions hadn't really changed when I started in with film.

Income is slightly less questionable after I moved to a region with a far stronger market for my field, and now I'll still claim to be young [younger than most here at least, so that still counts, right?], basically engaged, still renting, and still doing both digital and film [with a hybrid workflow for the time being].

The only thing keeping me from doing a full analog workflow is lack of a suitable setup. But even after I have secured that I suspect that I will continue to work in both digital and film photography.


Within my social circle I really can't think of anyone much older than myself who is using film to any extent. - But they are all casual photo types, sending snapshots of the kids/grandkids to friends and family rather than seeing themselves as artists.

The handful of people I know who are using film are young, highly mobile in lifestyle, and using film because they enjoy the artistic merits it offers.


It should probably also be noted that of the people I know who use film, they pretty much all avoid being involved in local photo clubs or forums like this one due to 'grumpy old men'. Which is a good reminder about data collection from personal experiences: Social circles tend to be filters, and filters exclude data.

 

[jtk]

I went to two different photography clubs in my area. Both were comprised of almost entirely retired people. I'd guess most lived in the same house they had for the last ten years and weren't planning on moving anytime soon. Every single one of them shot digital, and almost seemed to get angry with me when I told them I shot film. They kept trying to argue with me that digital was better in every way. They couldn't wrap their head around why someone would choose to shoot film in this day and age. Needless to say I didn't go back to either.

The only other film shooter in my area that I know rents a house, is single, and does not have steady income. I know a few professional digital shooters in similar situations.

I'm steadily employed, happily married, rent a house, and shoot both.

So I guess I haven't personally seen any correlation between those life situations and film vs digital. Though I will say my experience with other film shooters is rather small. Most film shooters I meet, I meet while traveling and don't really get to know.

???

Unless somebody collects solid data to prove otherwise I am sure the OP is incorrect statistically. Also the question "Are you happy with minilab" is irrelevant as there is basically no minilab around.

A plea for "correct statistics" is often a way of avoiding something obvious. Fwiw I taught scientific method and statistics as a grad school teaching assistant.

 

[jtk]

My personal experience was that I was young, single, renting, with questionable tech income in a locally soft market when I got into digital photography. My life conditions hadn't really changed when I started in with film.



Income is slightly less questionable after I moved to a region with a far stronger market for my field, and now I'll still claim to be young [younger than most here at least, so that still counts, right?], basically engaged, still renting, and still doing both digital and film [with a hybrid workflow for the time being].

The only thing keeping me from doing a full analog workflow is lack of a suitable setup. But even after I have secured that I suspect that I will continue to work in both digital and film photography.


Within my social circle I really can't think of anyone much older than myself who is using film to any extent. - But they are all casual photo types, sending snapshots of the kids/grandkids to friends and family rather than seeing themselves as artists.

The handful of people I know who are using film are young, highly mobile in lifestyle, and using film because they enjoy the artistic merits it offers.


It should probably also be noted that of the people I know who use film, they pretty much all avoid being involved in local photo clubs or forums like this one due to 'grumpy old men'. Which is a good reminder about data collection from personal experiences: Social circles tend to be filters, and filters exclude data.

Great observations...I admit that I like them because they seem to support my OT.

I don't think of this as "data collection." But mention of "grumpy old men" rings a bell. Not many women on Photrio but when I'm hiking or in Santa Fe (for example) that's mostly who seem to tote "serious" cameras.

 

[Chan Tran]

A plea for "correct statistics" is often a way of avoiding something obvious. Fwiw I taught scientific method and statistics as a grad school teaching assistant.

What is obvious? In my experience I see it different but I didn't make careful record of what I observe. So if you have the data then you can convince me otherwise my memory said otherwise.

 

[Pioneer]

I shoot a lot. Film and rifles. I also use a very nice Pentax K5iiS and Pentax Q digital, both of which I enjoy, though not nearly as much as film.

I am a bit on the older side, married and retired. I own my home and have lived in the same location for over 30 years. It is totally impossible to do anything in my garage, including parking cars, because it is so full of the results of living in the same place for 30 years.

I have a darkroom and two enlargers but cannot use them most of the time as my wife now uses it for sewing and crafts (this started almost immediately on building it.) As a result I use the 2nd bathroom as a temporary darkroom. I contact print my sheet film.

I scan most of my smaller format film (120 & 35mm) and print on a nice inkjet because this is preferable to not being able to print at all (see darkroom/sewing room discussion.)

I am not sure where this places me in your demographic discussion but I am certainly enjoying my retirement!

 

[btaylor]

This thread is kind of like a slow motion car wreck-- I keep telling myself I am not going to look and then I peek again.
"This thread has everything: young vs old, pro vs amateur, film vs digital, married vs free, etc. Lots of ways to divide and argue. We're only on the first page and already the "didn't you even read it" comments are present." --jawarden
I think that's a pretty good summary! Y'all have fun.

 

[faberryman]

Fwiw I taught scientific method and statistics as a grad school teaching assistant.

It is a shame you have forgotten it, and now just make wholly unfounded assertions to gin up controversy.

 

[guangong]

It is a shame you have forgotten it, and now just make wholly unfounded assertions to gin up controversy.

Ferryman, you took the words out of my mouth. I was going to add that I studied statistics with the man who set up the US dept of labor measurement of unemployment, etc. I worked with statistical analysis, especially incomplete statistical sets. This made up a significant part of my dissertation. One great thing I learned during two semesters of study is always to make sure of definitions behind statistics.

JTK’s post on Moholy & Bauhaus was interesting viewing. Today he reminds me of the frog at the bottom of the well who believes the little circle is the whole sky.

All I can add is that my old friend who works in “used” at BH tells me every time I see him that film cameras move quickly out the door and it’s young people buying them. Film will never be what it was when there was no alternative, but painting, etching and drawing didn’t die with the invention of photography

 

[awty]

In the past 25 years I've lived in 20 different locations, I guess that makes me unstable. But I have a full-time job with a predictable salary, will probably rent the rest of my life, single (but not changing partners), no plans to be professional in any way, and I shoot film and have an enlarger in my spare bedroom for printing. I use my phone for every day stuff but film for the important things. I love the darkroom and the only reason I would want to own my own home is so that I could build a purpose-built darkroom for myself there. So I think I hit the descriptors for both groups. Like the others have said, not everything is so black and white and your generalizations tend to pigeon-hole people into one kind of life. We are not either/or.

Also, I would say, having lived in Japan off and on for nearly 15 years, that it is a lot less stable than it was in the past. People are not getting married and/or having children because salaries have not increased in decades and people can't afford to do either (or wait until they have enough money to do so, by then it's too late). The younger generation is single and there are a lot of virgins out there (over 40% of 18-35 year-olds - both sexes, and 25% of men over 30) - dating seems problematic here and people are happier spending time with their friends rather than navigating the dating pool (or they work such long hours it's almost impossible to meet/see someone). The population is set to drop from 127 million (at its peak a couple years ago) to about 100 million in 2050 because the country is super-aged and not enough young people are being born (not a new problem, the government has been aware of this since the 1970s, but have not implemented any real changes to deal with this issue). And yes, the younger generation practically lives on their phones, but it's also the younger generation that I see using film - not that often, but when I do, it's definitely not the older, more stable generation. Those old guys (and it's always old guys) switched over to the latest and greatest digital stuff years ago and have not looked back since.

Thats interesting. Youngsters here tend to be very socially active both physically and on social media (judging from my family), some pair up, some don't. Theres no great pressure or emergency to have boyfriend/girlfriend. Also there is a growing population of over 40's living alone. I would guess at least 30% of my house hold customers (Im a plumber) live alone and Ive noticed the trend is getting more common over the last 20 years. Women tend to fair better, I cant notice any great indication they live alone unless the they say so, men on the other hand seems more obvious, some fair better than others. Women tend to be better at socializing men not so. See a lot of men living in vans/vehicles etc in my area, you would think they would get together and hang out at the same car park to get a bit of socializing, but no they seem to spread themselves out. There is a push to get the government to make a department for the lonely to try and help such people.

 

[awty]

How many hobbyist have a quality inject printer? The only ones I know of are those using them to make contact print negatives. The vast majority of digital photographer hobbyist dont do quality prints of there pictures. Of coarse professional photographers are going to use a inject printer over a darkroom, but for hobbyists it would be more evenly spread.

 

[Vaughn]

I have been in both groups, film and darkroom (dimroom now) the whole time.

 

[jtk]

Great observations...I admit that I like them because they seem to support my OT.

I don't think of this as "data collection." But mention of "grumpy old men" rings a bell. Not many women on Photrio but when I'm hiking or in Santa Fe (for example) that's mostly who seem to tote "serious" cameras.

What is obvious? In my experience I see it different but I didn't make careful record of what I observe. So if you have the data then you can convince me otherwise my memory said otherwise.

No need to convince anybody of anything. The OT asked for your thoughts, not for defensive stuff.

 

[jtk]

I have been in both groups, film and darkroom (dimroom now) the whole time.

How many hobbyist have a quality inject printer? The only ones I know of are those using them to make contact print negatives. The vast majority of digital photographer hobbyist dont do quality prints of there pictures. Of coarse professional photographers are going to use a inject printer over a darkroom, but for hobbyists it would be more evenly spread.

Youd have to ask Canon and Epson about that. They each target serious amateurs with 3 or 4 inkjet photo printers that cost less than serious amateurs often spend on enlargers.

 

[Chan Tran]

No need to convince anybody of anything. The OT asked for your thoughts, not for defensive stuff.

I said the OP was dead wrong.