Delta 3200: fogging next to sprocket holes

[mnemosyne]

I am experiencing problems with a batch of Delta 3200 I have been using recently. All films show a regularly shaped fogging next to the sprocket holes, area about the size of the sprocket holes (picture). It is most prominent at the beginning of the roll, then gradually getting less until it completely vanishes around frame 8 or 9.

I have so far processed 4 rolls (same production batch) at different times, and they all showed the same problem. First rolls were in an Olympus OM-1 that was relatively new to me, so I was thinking maybe some light leaking in the camera, but it is the same with my trustworthy and fully serviced Leica IIIf. With the last film I also made sure it was loaded and unloaded in subdued light (nighttime indoors with normal household lamp illumination).

Processing was with Tmax Developer 1+4 for 9m30s (24C, normal intermittent agitation)

The problem keeps on ruining pictures, so I need to solve it or I have to stop using Delta 3200 ...

 

[Lachlan Young]

How are you storing the film after exposure?

 

[John Salim]

It looks like you need to fix your films longer in fresh fixer with more agitation ( ...which is apparent with sprocket hole shadows ).
Many of these 'modern' films require a good fixing bath.

You can check this by re-fixing your negs !

Best wishes,
John S

 

[BradS]

thinking out loud....
Light leak? hmmm....but then, why wouldn't it be on all frames.
Have you tried D3200 in another camera?

Only the first few frames...loading or unloading or storage issues?

It seems very unlikely (to me at least) that it is a film issue...obviously D3200 is very light sensitive so it will emphasize any issues in handling, storage or light leaks.

 

[jimjm]

One possible cause could be surge marks from overzealous agitation during development. As the developer flows thru the sprocket holes it can result in increased developer action adjacent to the hole. Try using a gentler action when inverting the tank.

 

[Mr Bill]

If it was me, I'd reverse the direction of the next film when I load it into the developing tank (I presume you are using a tank). Then observe whether the fogged portion keeps its orientation with respect to the processing tank vs the original cassette winding. This ought to either implicate or rule out a processing issue.

If I had been troubleshooting this as part of my old day job (included plenty of film/camera/process troubleshooting) I would have also processed a couple of new, unexposed rolls. If they showed the same problem you could immediately rule out any camera issues.

Best of luck.

 

[mnemosyne]

How are you storing the film after exposure?

The film was stored in the original black canister at room temperature, it was three days between exposure and processing. It is hot at the moment, but I had this with previous rolls in completely different weather. Film is a couple of months old, expiry end of 2019.

One possible cause could be surge marks from overzealous agitation during development. As the developer flows thru the sprocket holes it can result in increased developer action adjacent to the hole. Try using a gentler action when inverting the tank.

My method (4 slow inversions every 60 seconds) has worked for 30 years and I have never seen this kind of marks on any other film. It would also be strange to see surge marks on the blank portion of the leader before frame 1 ... And why only up to frame 10 and nowhere else?

If it was me, I'd reverse the direction of the next film when I load it into the developing tank (I presume you are using a tank). Then observe whether the fogged portion keeps its orientation with respect to the processing tank vs the original cassette winding. This ought to either implicate or rule out a processing issue.

If I had been troubleshooting this as part of my old day job (included plenty of film/camera/process troubleshooting) I would have also processed a couple of new, unexposed rolls. If they showed the same problem you could immediately rule out any camera issues.

Best of luck.

Reverse direction ... develop blank roll... this is a very good advice, I hadn't thought about yet, I will definitely do that it should help me to pin down the problem! Actually, the problem reminds me a bit of the kind of light piping one can get at the beginning of a film coated on a clear polyester base like the now defunct Efkes. But there these patches of fog were usually limited to the area between the sprockets and did not enter the image area.

 

[Sirius Glass]

thinking out loud....
Light leak? hmmm....but then, why wouldn't it be on all frames.
Have you tried D3200 in another camera?

Only the first few frames...loading or unloading or storage issues?

It seems very unlikely (to me at least) that it is a film issue...obviously D3200 is very light sensitive so it will emphasize any issues in handling, storage or light leaks.

My first thoughts. Then questions on whether that end of the film was closer or farther out on the reel during development. Lastly, fix longer.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Looks to me like your film is old (age fog) and you are agitating too vigorously.

 

[ericdan]

Delta 3200 always fogs a little bit on the first 3-4 frames. the very edge will be black but it doesn't reach into the picture frame itself.
what you showed looks like a development problem. Delta 3200 always suffers some light piping on the first few frames, that's why it's 'more' apparent on the first few frames. The beginning of the roll is also in the center of the reel. If you use twist the reel to agitate you make the problem even worse. Meaning less agitation in the center and more on the outside.
The only agitation method that always works is inversion of some kind.

 

[mnemosyne]

My first thoughts. Then questions on whether that end of the film was closer or farther out on the reel during development. Lastly, fix longer.

The beginning of the film was close to the center of the reel.

Looks to me like your film is old (age fog) and you are agitating too vigorously.

Yes I see fog too, but as I already wrote above, the film was fresh (3 months old, expiry end of 2019) and I used my normal, gentle agitation method which I have been using for 30 years without ill effect. Also if it was age related fog or over agitation, it would be consistent over the whole roll and not limited to the first couple of frames.

Delta 3200 always fogs a little bit on the first 3-4 frames. the very edge will be black but it doesn't reach into the picture frame itself.
what you showed looks like a development problem. Delta 3200 always suffers some light piping on the first few frames, that's why it's 'more' apparent on the first few frames. The beginning of the roll is also in the center of the reel. If you use twist the reel to agitate you make the problem even worse. Meaning less agitation in the center and more on the outside.
The only agitation method that always works is inversion of some kind.

Okay, this indicates that the problem is indeed related to light piping.
I do not twist the wheel, I use a normal agitation method. About ten inversions over the first 30 seconds, then 10 seconds (four slow inversions) every sixty seconds.

 

[ericdan]

That’s interesting. I saw marks like this on film I put through stand development before. Hence the above guess of too little agitation. It basically looks like the typical bromide drag. It has to be something with your agitation. Do you invert and rotate?

 

[mnemosyne]

That’s interesting. I saw marks like this on film I put through stand development before. Hence the above guess of too little agitation. It basically looks like the typical bromide drag. It has to be something with your agitation. Do you invert and rotate?

I would rule out bromide drag. Why? Bromide is set free when silver halides are reduced to silver. It produces area of lower density next to area of highlights, where the developer is quickly exhausted. So for bromide drag to happen you need developer to be exhausted (locally). In my case the density in question is higher, not lower, and there are no highlights close by, so no bromide build up there.

 

[mnemosyne]

So I just went through my archives and this is what I found out ..

• no traces of fogging/light piping on two D3200 developed earlier this year bought in a local camera shop, shot in OM-1, developed in Xtol (1+0)
• fogging/light piping on four D3200 from a different batch (expiry late 2019), mail order from a relatively big distributor of photo supplies, two shot in OM-1, two in my IIIf, developed in Tmax (1+4)

 

[pentaxuser]

If light piping is an intrinsic problem with D3200 as ericdan seems to suggest, then does P3200 also suffer from this and if not, I wonder how Kodak avoids the problem that Ilford allegedly has?

pentaxuser

 

[ericdan]

If light piping is an intrinsic problem with D3200 as ericdan seems to suggest, then does P3200 also suffer from this and if not, I wonder how Kodak avoids the problem that Ilford allegedly has?

pentaxuser

I notice it much less with P3200. Also P3200 seems to be a slower film.
That being said it’s not a problem with delta 3200 either. It never reaches into the frame. Just the very edges are noticeably darker than other films for the first few frames.