Defective Darkroom Supplies Galore

[mshchem]

My only criticism of the Paterson tanks is the lid and burp. It's too slow while I feel the the clock running. I'm sure it hasn't materially altered any development with the delay in agitation, but it sure feels that way!

I never fiddled with the "swizzle stick" but after 30 years of Paterson use, I found out that you are supposed to swizzle the reels for the first 30 seconds, then put the cap on, burp and agitate normally.

 

[wyofilm]

I never fiddled with the "swizzle stick" but after 30 years of Paterson use, I found out that you are supposed to swizzle the reels for the first 30 seconds, then put the cap on, burp and agitate normally.

Ha! I have done that in the past, but didn't realize I was doing it the officially sanctioned way. Now, I just get the lid on quickly and ignore the delay.

 

[Truzi]

Look at it this way - you've probably experienced the most common problems right away, so the only way to go is up.

As previously mentioned, steel tanks with steel lids tend to leak at least a little. You also don't want to mix them. While they are interchangeable, you may find one lid will leak less on a particular tank. Test them, and when you find a good combination, mark them so you know which go together. To deal with slight leaking I typically put either electrical tape around the seam (easily removed), or use one of those thick rubber bands that you get with produce like broccoli or carrots.

The plastic/rubber lids don't leak much, but it can be easy to misalign the groove over the tank when putting it on. Forcing it this way can cause a permanent problem with the lid. I prefer the steel lids, mostly for aesthetic reasons... I don't develop enough that a rubber band creates too much of a delay/hassle.

 

[AgX]

I've seen a lot of people talking about Tetenal on here - don't know what it is.

Tetenal, founded in1847, was a german manufacturer of photo-processing chemicals. In west-german tines it was the major one, with a wide range of photo products. With the changes at film manufacturers they even toll-produced for them. Nonwithstanding they recently went bancrupt and vanished. A successor firm, founded by former employees now tries, much reduced in size, to gain foot again on the processing chemicals market. They are called Tetenal 1847.

 

[ic-racer]

I think all SS tank lids leak fluid. Frequently a bent SS reel can be straightened. Can you post an image of the fogged film.

 

[wyofilm]

A successor firm, founded by former employees now tries, much reduced in size, to gain foot again on the processing chemicals market.

I keep reading on the posts here that Tetanal was the only firm making photography chemical products. If I have understood that position correctly then it shouldn't be too hard for them to capture the processing chemicals market.

 

[AgX]

No, there have been several of such manufacturers in Germany.
At the moment next to Tetenal 1847 are three more german firms on this field, one on industrial scale and two on workshop scale. These are all firms dedicated to photochemicals. Of course there is the chance of any manufacturer to a have formulae of his own toll-blended and packaged by any blending firm with the appropriate legal licences. Or to blend those at own premises.

 

[wyofilm]

Well now I'm more confused than ever. When I buy Ilford processing chemistry, who made it? When I buy Arista or Cinistill kits, who made them? When I buy Adox, who made it? When I buy Kodak, who made it?

 

[pentaxuser]

Remind me of my youth .
.

What? As in hard, unyielding and with a steely look?

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

Well now I'm more confused than ever. When I buy Ilford processing chemistry, who made it? When I buy Arista or Cinistill kits, who made them? When I buy Adox, who made it? When I buy Kodak, who made it?

As far as I remember there has not been a definite statement by any film manufacturer on that. But quite some assumptions here on Apug. Including even parallel manufacture by two blending firms.

 

[mshchem]

Well now I'm more confused than ever. When I buy Ilford processing chemistry, who made it? When I buy Arista or Cinistill kits, who made them? When I buy Adox, who made it? When I buy Kodak, who made it?

Obviously I don't know exactly what Ilford is doing right now, however, it seems that Ilford has managed the Tetenal issue with no problems. As to Adox. Adox has a new, perfectly sized facility for manufacturing, confectioning, darkroom chemistry. It's not clear that Adox is making every product currently, but I suspect this is the goal.
Kodak moved all liquid chemistry to the US, not clear to me who is supplying. The Kodak powders are still being produced in Germany, but there's been problems with nearly every item. I stocked up on XTOL and Kodak rapid fix when the news that Tetenal went into receivership.
Freestyle has managed the Arista brand of chemistry for decades, and I don't think anything has changed. I believe that Freestyle has a division that blends this stuff?

Really right now I think it's anyone but Kodak, as much as that breaks my heart. Hopefully Alaris can find a buyer for the black and white chemistry products.

 

[MattKing]

Arista is Freestyle's brand. They are the distributer for it.
I think that the Kodak Alaris packaging issues for the powdered chemicals have been basically resolved, save for some retail unhappiness about the format, but there is some product from affected batches still in the pipeline.
And I have received information that now leads me to understand that all the Kodak photo chemicals business - both colour and black and white - has now been purchased by Sino Promise Holdings and that all the Kodak Alaris employees and infrastructure that supported that business have also gone with it.

 

[eddie]

...an Arista/Freestyle Photo stainless steel tank with a leak where the lid seals around the tank so chemicals leaked out all over the place and light leaks ruined the film

I don't see how a leaky lid could cause light leaks. Every steel tank I've ever used had a light trap in the lid. Even if they leaked chemicals, there was never a light leak which could be attributed to the tank.

 

[wyofilm]

It became fairly confusing for me especially when Tetenal went into receivership. Most day to day B&W chemicals that I use are Ilford and Photographer's Formulary. I remember reading that Tetenal produced chemistry for Ilford, but as mshchem pointed out Ilford had no real disruption to speak of. Sadly, Kodak remains a mess. If not for their amazing color films, I wouldn't look towards Kodak for anything. Sure they also have great B&W films, but so do others. The Kodak/Kodak Alaris relationship never seemed healthy to me: technical savvy in one place and marketing in another. It seemed like Kodak Alaris never knew what to do with the stills film market and struggled with the chemistry.

Things are still pretty confused for me, but it does seem like there is redundancy in the photographic chemistry production, which is positive. Now if we could just convince makers of C41 kits to produce kits with separate bleach and fix steps, I would be happy (this excludes the unobtanium Fuji hunt product.)

 

[cmacd123]

My only criticism of the Paterson tanks is the lid and burp. It's too slow while I feel the the clock running. I'm sure it hasn't materially altered any development with the delay in agitation, but it sure feels that way!

yes, and one really has to "Hold your Mouth right" to get it to srech over the top of the tank. I only use those tanks when I am desparate, sticking to my older patersons when I need the Paterson for some reason. The AP "deluxe" reels do have a loading "ramp" for 120, but that gets in the way if you want to take 35mm film off the reel for examination without taking the reel apart. AP is most commonly found under the Arista Brand.

 

[cmacd123]

Well now I'm more confused than ever. When I buy Ilford processing chemistry, who made it? When I buy Arista or Cinistill kits, who made them? When I buy Adox, who made it? When I buy Kodak, who made it?

the makers of any brand of chemisty tend to be closely garded trade secrets of the distributors. If you look at MSDS for some products you will sometimes find a hint of the maker.

Ilford stuff Made in Germany was probably Tetenal.
ADOX likely bought most things but now is doing the final blending a packing themselves. they have hinted that Tetenal suplies some of the ingredients. Calbe, which was connected with the East German ORWO clan no doubt is another suplier that they have used.
Arista has MSDS prepared By Photo systems Inc. (formerly known as UNICOLOR) and some suspect that they also are doing the Kodak Branded Liquid chemicals.

Some component parts may be traded beween companies, CD-4 developing agent is rumored to be ONLY made by Tetenal these days.

You can't tell the players without a score card - and the folks who do have fragments of the scour cards tend to be under Nondisclosure Agreements.

 

[mshchem]

It became fairly confusing for me especially when Tetenal went into receivership. Most day to day B&W chemicals that I use are Ilford and Photographer's Formulary. I remember reading that Tetenal produced chemistry for Ilford, but as mshchem pointed out Ilford had no real disruption to speak of. Sadly, Kodak remains a mess. If not for their amazing color films, I wouldn't look towards Kodak for anything. Sure they also have great B&W films, but so do others. The Kodak/Kodak Alaris relationship never seemed healthy to me: technical savvy in one place and marketing in another. It seemed like Kodak Alaris never knew what to do with the stills film market and struggled with the chemistry.

Things are still pretty confused for me, but it does seem like there is redundancy in the photographic chemistry production, which is positive. Now if we could just convince makers of C41 kits to produce kits with separate bleach and fix steps, I would be happy (this excludes the unobtanium Fuji hunt product.)

Look at Unique photo in New Jersey, they sell less than case quantities of Kodak Flexicolor chemistry, it's made by the China based company that just purchased the color paper and chemistry. It's been coming from China for years so no issues. I reuse the bleach and replenish, but only the bleach. Fixer and Developer are super reasonable. Get the C-41RA chemistry, this is what all minilabs use, it's fresh, cheap, and fast. You can run the whole process in under 10 minutes. Don't buy stabilizer, wash the film after fixing then use the Flexicolor Final Rinse, sort of like PhotoFlo only they add biocide to prevent fungus from dining on the gelatin emulsion. Kodak has instructions on their website, forget the Flexicolor SM chemistry, it's nearly obsolete.

 

[wyofilm]

Look at Unique photo in New Jersey, they sell less than case quantities of Kodak Flexicolor chemistry, it's made by the China based company that just purchased the color paper and chemistry. It's been coming from China for years so no issues. I reuse the bleach and replenish, but only the bleach. Fixer and Developer are super reasonable. Get the C-41RA chemistry, this is what all minilabs use, it's fresh, cheap, and fast. You can run the whole process in under 10 minutes. Don't buy stabilizer, wash the film after fixing then use the Flexicolor Final Rinse, sort of like PhotoFlo only they add biocide to prevent fungus from dining on the gelatin emulsion. Kodak has instructions on their website, forget the Flexicolor SM chemistry, it's nearly obsolete.

I have been using the Kodak C-41RA, but I try to limit the number of bottles of reagents I have sitting around sitting around. I would prefer a smaller, easily consumable kit, but one constructed the right way. Throw in some color printing chems, occasionally E6 chems, menu of b&w, and a dose of some alternative process chems, and its a good mess! Secondly, having a separate bleach and fix is just the right way! I wrote to Cinistill (I know tilting windmills!); they told me that they would run the idea past their team. Hah! (It ain't gonna happen.)

 

[DH_Studio]

If you want to make your life simple, until the Kodak Alaris black and white chemistry mess gets straight, buy Ilford fixer, stop bath and one of their film developer formulas.
Even easier, buy a bottle of Adox Rodinal and a small 25-50 mL plastic graduated cylinder. Rodinal has been around when George Eastman was still working at a bank. It is the most foolproof, never ages, dependable easy to use developer ever made. And this is coming from a guy who has license plates that say XTOL (I'm not kidding ) XTOL is wonderful I have a strategic supply. All of Kodak and Ilford chemistry was (is still with Ilford) made in Germany by Tetenal until Tetenal went to a massive re-organization due to financial issues. There's a new Tetenal, who is trying to get back on track, the Tetenal E6 and C41 kits are perfect for small volume users.
The best SS tanks with plastic lids were made by Kindermann, in West Germany. Every other plastic lidded tank is either a Taiwan or Chinese copy, and as such somewhat hit or miss in quality. Kindermann tanks were also sold as Beseler Professional tanks in the 20th century.
Nikor the original, of which everyone else copied started in NYC sometime in the mid to late 30's to cope with the miniature film boom (i.e. 35mm, Leica etc.) Later Nikor moved to West Springfield Massachusetts. This is where most of the stuff came from. It was the absolute best you could buy, a status symbol until Donald Paterson perfected his wonderful auto loading reels. Paterson pretty much took the non professional market away from Nikor, Nikor was bought and eventually went away.

Nikor is classic but they all leak, weep, taping the lid on with waterproof tape helps. But almost any not defective plastic lidded tank won't leak as much as a 50 year old Nikor tank. It won't look cool, or feel as cool as a nice Nikor tank but that's what you get from Cheap imports.

Buy a bottle of Rodinal, some Ilford Rapid fixer, Edwal LFN wetting agent. Maybe buy a Paterson universal tank, holds 1 120 or 2 35mm reels. Quit messing with Kodak Powders for now. Everyone else makes powders Ilford, Foma, Eco-Pro etc. But try to make your life easy Rodinal is 10 mL to make 260mL developer, use once and toss.

Thank you for all of that info! I need to find a chart or something to explain the differences between developers. I keep hearing about certain developers for old emulsions vs others for new emulsions, acutance, and still too new to this to know what any of that actually translates into in terms of noticeable differences between one developer or another. So much to learn!

 

[wyofilm]

Ilford does a nice job of giving basic info on their developers and film pairings. Other manufactures do the same, I'm sure. When you want to go deeper go to
https://www.amazon.com/Film-Develop...608414824&sprefix=film+cookboo,aps,377&sr=8-3

Of course, Photrio is a great resource. There is a lot of wisdom here and relatively little BS.

 

[Sirius Glass]

 

[mshchem]

Thank you for all of that info! I need to find a chart or something to explain the differences between developers. I keep hearing about certain developers for old emulsions vs others for new emulsions, acutance, and still too new to this to know what any of that actually translates into in terms of noticeable differences between one developer or another. So much to learn!

Modern film is so incredibly well made, sharp, ultra fine grain any Ilford, Kodak (when it's not brown!), Adox, Freestyle house brands will give you good results. Sirius Glass and I share a love for XTOL, but anything that makes your life easy to get you back in the darkroom. This is why I suggest Rodinal, you can open it and come back 2 years later and it will still be good. This property is what made Kodak HC-110 such a hit with pros, that and, like XTOL, ease of replenishment. Today's HC-110 has changed dramatically in the "feel" of the developer, people are still wary. With all the issues, Kodak's black and white chemistry has a lot of us concerned.

 

[mshchem]

Arista is Freestyle's brand. They are the distributer for it.
I think that the Kodak Alaris packaging issues for the powdered chemicals have been basically resolved, save for some retail unhappiness about the format, but there is some product from affected batches still in the pipeline.
And I have received information that now leads me to understand that all the Kodak photo chemicals business - both colour and black and white - has now been purchased by Sino Promise Holdings and that all the Kodak Alaris employees and infrastructure that supported that business have also gone with it.

This makes sense. Chemistry and paper was/is a division, no mention of a separate black and white chemistry division. God forbid Alaris sells the still film business group to China. That would be an end, for me of a lifelong relationship.

 

[wyofilm]

God forbid Alaris sells the still film business group to China. That would be an end, for me of a lifelong relationship.

I agree. Should that day come, I would use my kids' college funds to buy ... ahem ... a fair amount of Kodak color film and the freezers to go with them. Shoot until I drop, the cameras fail, or the film runs out.

 

[DH_Studio]

Modern film is so incredibly well made, sharp, ultra fine grain any Ilford, Kodak (when it's not brown!), Adox, Freestyle house brands will give you good results. Sirius Glass and I share a love for XTOL, but anything that makes your life easy to get you back in the darkroom. This is why I suggest Rodinal, you can open it and come back 2 years later and it will still be good. This property is what made Kodak HC-110 such a hit with pros, that and, like XTOL, ease of replenishment. Today's HC-110 has changed dramatically in the "feel" of the developer, people are still wary. With all the issues, Kodak's black and white chemistry has a lot of us concerned.

Thank you! Is there a specific reason you like XTOL? That's a two part developer, right? I think I'll give Rodinal a try, too. Is it basically: grain size, sharpness, contrast and convenience that are the variables between different developers? If Rodinal is super cheap and keeps forever what would make something else "better" (in someone's opinion)? Why the need for so many options? Do you know of a resource that really breaks down why X developer with Y film is a better combo, and what the characteristics of each different developer are?

Always such helpful comments, thanks again!