Date of papers? (Ektacolor & Cibachrome)

[Petrochemist]

I've recent received some old color paper I intend to play with. I'm fairly sure they are well out of date but I'd like to have an idea of just how far.

The Kodak paper is Ektacolor 74 N and seems to have a batch number of 30878-592 - I gather this is normal colour paper.

The Ilford Cibachrome is actually of much greater interest, being a reversal color paper, as I should be able to use this cit down directly in my LF cameras (with LONG exposures) it's labeled as Cibachrome-A with what looks like a 57D 4136 batch number.
I believe Cibachrome was at some point rebranded as Ilfochrome and then discontinued in 2011

Can anyone give me any pointers with these?

 

[MattKing]

The Cibachrome or Ilfochrome chemistry needed to make use of the Cibachrome paper has been discontinued as long as the paper, and unless you find someone with some of it, and it is still usable - a big if - you won't be likely to get much out of it.
Here is a thread about the history of the predecessors to Ektacolor 74: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-history-of-kodak-color-papers.27079/
That paper is decades old, and probably won't perform at all well given its age. Colour materials don't maintain colour fidelity for decades!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Cibachrome is a direct-positive paper, NOT reversal like Kodak and other "Type R" papers were. Nor was the main variety of Ciba even a paper, but coated on a polyester base. I'd be extremely skeptical of any Cibachrome being still usable. I even still have an unopened box of 20X24 Ciba still in my freezer, but took my stockpile of necessary P-3 chemistry to hazmat disposal awhile back, knowing that it would be futile at that point. I kept the fixer, which is just ordinary non-hardening Ilford fixer, since I can be used for other purposes too; but the developer is specialized, and P3 bleach is mainly concentrated sulfuric acid, not good to have around if you really don't need it.

I kept my last box of Ciba because, being a high-quality opaque PET sheet material, it's still good for things like cutout masks or templates, or shims.

In-camera usage requires a lot of testing for proper filtration. And even if the paper was still good, the color balance shifts appreciably over six months or so after thawing. The Type A, sold in retail photo stores, was often somewhat aged by the time it sold. There was an optional bleach for that, using safer sulfamic acid shipped in powdered form in the amateur kits. Worked the same, but was not practical for big commercial operations. It would be quite difficult to batch up your own required developer or bleach.

The prognosis for chromogenic Ektacolor 74 paper would be even worse. Chemistry-wise, no problem, but
shelf life, big problem. That was for color negative film.

 

[Petrochemist]

The Cibachrome or Ilfochrome chemistry needed to make use of the Cibachrome paper has been discontinued as long as the paper, and unless you find someone with some of it, and it is still usable - a big if - you won't be likely to get much out of it.
Here is a thread about the history of the predecessors to Ektacolor 74: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-history-of-kodak-color-papers.27079/
That paper is decades old, and probably won't perform at all well given its age. Colour materials don't maintain colour fidelity for decades!

Thanks Matt. I see from that thread that Ektacolor 74 was available till about 1984 so at least 40 years old. I've not got a large amount of that one so I'll just pass the paper on to my wife (for her crafts) & keep the packaging

I've seen a Youtube video of Cibachrome being used when it was about 10 years out of date. The images it gave where very dark but not otherwise unusable for my purposes - accurate colours are not a huge concern.
Having worked as a chemist for 40 years mixing my own chemicals is not daunting, though finding the right formulations might be tricky.

 

[Petrochemist]

Cibachrome is a direct-positive paper, NOT reversal like Kodak and other "Type R" papers were. Nor was the main variety of Ciba even a paper, but coated on a polyester base. I'd be extremely skeptical of any Cibachrome being still usable. I even still have an unopened box of 20X24 Ciba still in my freezer, but took my stockpile of necessary P-3 chemistry to hazmat disposal awhile back, knowing that it would be futile at that point. I kept the fixer, which is just ordinary non-hardening Ilford fixer, since I can be used for other purposes too; but the developer is specialized, and P3 bleach is mainly concentrated sulfuric acid, not good to have around if you really don't need it.

I kept my last box of Ciba because, being a high-quality opaque PET sheet material, it's still good for things like cutout masks or templates, or shims.

In-camera usage requires a lot of testing for proper filtration. And even if the paper was still good, the color balance shifts appreciably over six months or so after thawing. The Type A, sold in retail photo stores, was often somewhat aged by the time it sold. There was an optional bleach for that, using safer sulfamic acid shipped in powdered form in the amateur kits. Worked the same, but was not practical for big commercial operations. It would be quite difficult to batch up your own required developer or bleach.

The prognosis for chromogenic Ektacolor 74 paper would be even worse. Chemistry-wise, no problem, but
shelf life, big problem. That was for color negative film.

Thanks Drew, you've given me another use for the Cibachrome when my efforts at using it have failed. I'm not too concerned over color shift (I shoot lots of false color IR after all)
I think potassium permanganate & sulphuric acid should be usable for the bleach, it's used in a similar reverse processing procedure for B&W I'll give it a go anyway if I can find some more on the P-3 developer. I think I have more than 40 sheets of 10x8 (160 5x4 shots) which gives me plenty to play with. I won't hold out much hope however

At least it was all very cheap!

 

[DREW WILEY]

The color shift wouldn't be minor. It becomes impossible to correct and irretrievable after a certain point. You probably understand that it can be hazardous to mix potassium permanganate with concentrated acid.
This has no relation to how black and white materials work. Potassium permanganate would strip away any dye left, and not do it selectively. But if you are determined to experiment, keep your rubber gloves and eye goggles handy. Or you might want to look up formulas for earlier chromolytic processes like the dye-destruction version of Gasparcolor, if that can be found. It would be wonderful if something of this category could be revived; but it would probably not be commercially viable anymore if it were. Kodak actually developed their own version of a direct positive process, but abandoned the project before ever marketing it.

 

[mshchem]

When I was building my hopefully last darkroom many years ago, I ran a drill through a box of 20x24 Cibachrome (ordinary not PET) paper. I'm just glad I missed all the Polywarmtone paper

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just call it expensive creativity - print after print.