D76

Raffay · Dec 14, 2013

Hello All,
Finally developed in D76, my first time. I liked the results!!
Kodat T-Max 400, tray developed in D76 for 9 mins at 20 deg

Pioneer · Dec 14, 2013

Raffay. Congratulations. It always feels good when something works.

If I could make a suggestion, to me it would have been even nicer if the picture had been a bit brighter. Let some more of the gorgeous light in. Maybe open your aperture up a stop, or even two, next time.

Bill Burk · Dec 14, 2013

Hi Raffay,

Always great to see your photographs!

Did you use D76 straight? Or mixed with water 1 part D76 to 1 part water?

Your earlier negatives were thinner. This looks like you have better quality, maybe even "perfect" according to standards (using the best part of the film for the part of picture that people see - the midtones and above).

Now that you have high quality you can ask yourself this question: Does this meet your preference? If you wish more detail in the shadows (a non-standard quality that I personally like) you might expose the film at EI 320. Or you might develop longer (that's why I ask about straight vs. 1:1 because my personal development time is 1:1 for around 11 to 13 minutes but if you used the developer straight 11 minutes would be too long).

Bill Burk · Dec 14, 2013

Pioneer said:
Let some more of the gorgeous light in. Maybe open your aperture up a stop, or even two, next time.

Exactly! Same thought I had with fewer words.

Raffay · Dec 14, 2013

Hello Bill & Pioneer,

I think, and as you also mention, the quality of the negative is much better one that I have at least not seen before. As far as light, I am not sure if it is scanning, PS or conversion to jpg issue. Lets discuss these one by one below:

1. Scanning: When I scanned I set everything to default in VS and the colour management was neutral, film selected as Kodax 400 and the dev D76 CI .40 I am not sure what CI .40 is. At that setting the picture was was way too bright. Then I selected "None" at the top and Generic and it was good, I scanned it and it came out very nice.

2. After converting to jpg it is turning dull, I had this issue again as well

What are you basic VueScan settings if you scan, that is another reason I want to try 8x10 and do contract printing and do away with this scanning workflow. Please see my post 8x0 on a budget and share some thoughts.

@Bill: I have to discuss your post regarding exposure, contrast and development in which you gave an example of mountains. I had gone on a business trip right after that and never got around to discussing and learning from it.

I will try and rescan it, and post.

Cheers

Raffay

Pioneer · Dec 14, 2013

Ah yes. Scanning can certainly interfere with the best of prints. Unfortunately my scanning abilities are woefully weak. However, there may be others who may be able to provide some useful input on this.

I personally work within the Epson software that came with my scanner. I know it may seem silly but as with printing, my scanning workflow is very visual. I typically use the histogram and adjust my white and black points to get what appears to be an acceptable image. Unfortunately I don't think this will help you very much so I hope someone else can step in here.

Raffay · Dec 14, 2013

Another try, reviewed all the comments I got in my earlier help with scanning post and I believe this one is a better sample than the previous one.

Cheers
Raffay

Pioneer · Dec 14, 2013

Raffay said:
View attachment 78478
Another try, reviewed all the comments I got in my earlier help with scanning post and I believe this one is a better sample than the previous one.

Cheers
Raffay

Whatever you did seemed to make all the difference on my monitor anyway. A very well framed picture to start with and it is much lighter now as well. The natural light is very visible.

It is such an amazing world we live in. We can discuss our hobbies and interests with others halfway around the world, but all that requires new skills. It is no longer good enough to do a good job exposing, developing and printing. Now we have to learn to scan it as well.

Raffay · Dec 14, 2013

Thank you Pioneer, and yes it is an amazing world. What sort of photography do you do?

Pioneer · Dec 14, 2013

Raffay said:
Thank you Pioneer, and yes it is an amazing world. What sort of photography do you do?

Personally I love working with medium format and large format film but lately I am primarily using 35mm. I have worked a lot with color but over the past year and a half I have been trying to teach myself black and white photography. I would love to say it is going well, but that wouldn't be completely true. That is one of the reasons I am using 35mm since it allows me to shoot film a little more economically. Knowing something technically does not equal artistic competence. I am a very slow learner so it has taken longer than I anticipated. Fortunately my grandchildren are still relatively willing subjects, and I live in an area with amazing mountains and desert panoramas.

I am semi-retired but professionally I do freelance forensic photography for a number of rural police departments, and the occasional attorney, who do not have adequate budgets to support one of their own. It is a pretty restricting discipline and "artistic license" is not really appreciated, but I do enjoy doing it. However, it is all done digitally, and though I do appreciate what digital is capable of, I much prefer film in my personal life.

How about yourself? From the posts I have seen you seem interested in large format photography. What is it like photographing in your country?

Bill Burk · Dec 15, 2013

Referring again to the diagram of film curves, your earlier work was on the red line. Now you are at the blue line. You exposed minimally (maybe used 400 speed setting). I notice it in your subject's hair on the dark side away from the window. There is slight hint of detail for some hair can be seen. This is ideal by many standards of excellence.

But the negative doesn't have much more to reveal. You could look at the negative and see that part of the negative is probably really clear. So increasing exposure the next time you take a picture will take you from the blue line to the green line. Then if you wanted to show more detail in the shadow, it would be on the negative.

Raffay · Dec 15, 2013

Pioneer said:
Personally I love working with medium format and large format film but lately I am primarily using 35mm. I have worked a lot with color but over the past year and a half I have been trying to teach myself black and white photography. I would love to say it is going well, but that wouldn't be completely true. That is one of the reasons I am using 35mm since it allows me to shoot film a little more economically. Knowing something technically does not equal artistic competence. I am a very slow learner so it has taken longer than I anticipated. Fortunately my grandchildren are still relatively willing subjects, and I live in an area with amazing mountains and desert panoramas.

I am semi-retired but professionally I do freelance forensic photography for a number of rural police departments, and the occasional attorney, who do not have adequate budgets to support one of their own. It is a pretty restricting discipline and "artistic license" is not really appreciated, but I do enjoy doing it. However, it is all done digitally, and though I do appreciate what digital is capable of, I much prefer film in my personal life.

How about yourself? From the posts I have seen you seem interested in large format photography. What is it like photographing in your country?

Hi,

I am a consultant by profession mostly dealing in IT related projects. Started using the camera some 9 years ago when we had our first daughter. First camera was a sony cyber shot, and ever since then interest kept increasing and here I am now. I was always interested by the look of a bigger sensor results and film is even better. I don't have the best gear, a modified Polaroid as a 4x5 camera no movements or lenses. But it keeps me going, I am planning on upgrading to a real view camera and have been contemplating on whether to get a 4x5 or go straight for the 8x10.

Photographing in Pakistan can be very exciting as there are a lot of different cultures, history if one is willing to find. But the challenging part is that film is completely dead and you don't get anything. I get all my stuff from abroad friends have been very kind and they bring whatever I need from their trips abroad. We don't get film not even 35mm I mean black and white, no chemicals etc. etc. I have been trying to find a 4x5 enlarger for the last two years ever since I started LF but still have not been able to. That is one of the reason I want to shoot 8x10 because then I will contact print and will try to take the enlarger out of the equation for the time being at least.

I am looking for a favourable deal for a 8x10 until then will continue shooting 4x5

Cheers

Raffay

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Raffay · Dec 16, 2013

Bill Burk said:
Referring again to the diagram of film curves, your earlier work was on the red line. Now you are at the blue line. You exposed minimally (maybe used 400 speed setting). I notice it in your subject's hair on the dark side away from the window. There is slight hint of detail for some hair can be seen. This is ideal by many standards of excellence.

But the negative doesn't have much more to reveal. You could look at the negative and see that part of the negative is probably really clear. So increasing exposure the next time you take a picture will take you from the blue line to the green line. Then if you wanted to show more detail in the shadow, it would be on the negative.

Hi Bill,

I am completely lost with these curves, I am sure it is my bad that I am not being able to grasp a simple concept. I have read your earlier post explaining the concept using a mountain trail example but still it is not clear to me how to interpret it. Forgetting the curves for the moment if I try to understand it as a basic concept then I should have metered the left side hair and if I think that the shadows are a zone three and if I want to show some details then I should open the aperture or decrease the shutter speed by one whole stop to bring it to zone IV that will show details on the hair that are away from the window. I am not sure of the exact readings but that might blow the side of the face facing the window. Then when I try to adjust in PS it comes back to the same situation where shadows are dark and the blown highlights don't look blown but has no good feel or details. I am quite sure I am missing some basic point in exposure area, and I really hope that I understand quickly what you are trying to teach me.

Cheers

Raffay

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Bill Burk · Dec 16, 2013

Highlights don't get blown out on black and white negative film like they did back in the days of Ansel Adams and the Zone System.

If you take two pictures, normally expose one (blue line) and overepose the other (green line). Develop them both exactly the same as the portrait you started this thread with. Then print (scan) them with the same settings only "change the brightness" to match - without changing the contrast... Then the pictures will be identical... Except the overexposed negative will have detail in the shadows that you can do something with.

p.s. On the graph, 15 divisions is one f/stop.

Pioneer · Dec 16, 2013

Raffay said:
Hi,

I am a consultant by profession mostly dealing in IT related projects. Started using the camera some 9 years ago when we had our first daughter. First camera was a sony cyber shot, and ever since then interest kept increasing and here I am now. I was always interested by the look of a bigger sensor results and film is even better. I don't have the best gear, a modified Polaroid as a 4x5 camera no movements or lenses. But it keeps me going, I am planning on upgrading to a real view camera and have been contemplating on whether to get a 4x5 or go straight for the 8x10.

Photographing in Pakistan can be very exciting as there are a lot of different cultures, history if one is willing to find. But the challenging part is that film is completely dead and you don't get anything. I get all my stuff from abroad friends have been very kind and they bring whatever I need from their trips abroad. We don't get film not even 35mm I mean black and white, no chemicals etc. etc. I have been trying to find a 4x5 enlarger for the last two years ever since I started LF but still have not been able to. That is one of the reason I want to shoot 8x10 because then I will contact print and will try to take the enlarger out of the equation for the time being at least.

I am looking for a favourable deal for a 8x10 until then will continue shooting 4x5

Cheers

Raffay

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Before retirement I worked as an auditor/investigator for a large mining company that had an exploration project in your country somewhere near the border with Iran. Never made it there myself but several friends have been there and found it very interesting.

I started large format with 8x10 for your exact same reason, I could contact print and get a decent sized photo. I finally picked up an enlarger so most of my LF work is now done with a Graflex 4x5. Not very many movements but it fits my needs almost perfectly.

Good luck with your learning. I develop almost exclusively with D-76, though I occasionally use some HC-110 or Rodinal as well.

I find Bill's suggestions very good. With the newer black & white films I almost always put the shadows where I want detail at Zone IV anymore. It gives me great detail in the shadows and I can hold the highlights in developing.

Have fun. I too am still learning and I love it.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 16, 2013

Yes, much improved!

Bill Burk · Dec 17, 2013

I should echo what Ralph just wrote, Raffay...

This image is one to be proud of, and no further improvement is really needed. By many measures it is perfect.

The only reason I suggested any further improvement is because you are already going in the right direction.

Raffay · Dec 17, 2013

Thank you all, it feels good reading all the encouraging comments. @Bill: I would still want to completely understand what you tried to teach me through those curves - to be honest I am still quite lost on those I would read the whole thing again and will then ask some questions, hope you don't mind.

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Raffay · Dec 17, 2013

Here is a picture taken of the same area today minus the subject. It was taken with my mobile so I think HDR was on therefore most of it is quite balanced. In real the cabinet is quite in the shadow. I am posting this picture to learn how to meter. I have taken values with my light meter and following are the light meter readings corresponding to different areas:

1. Scene outside the window - 5.6
2. Window frame - 2.8
3. I placed my hand where my wife's face was and the reading is - 1.4
4. Brown cabinet - 1.0

Now, please guide me how should one approach this scene. In a short time when most of the subjects are telling you to hurry up, one tends to get more confused and when you take into account the shutter sped and aperture then all numbers start to just bounce in your head and all the planning is gone and most of the times you don't know why you shot at the settings you did

Cheers

Raffay

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Bill Burk · Dec 17, 2013

I think you need a different shutter speed. I get the pressure too (I shoot a modified instant camera as well)

If you need a benchmark reading, take a reading on your hand - and then "open up" one stop (so 1.0 is the final answer). If your meter has an incident mode - that's the same thing.

I always do that as a "tentative" reading and then take other meter readings to see how the different parts of the scene might turn out.

So in one reading you can take a picture. Then you can relax after taking the picture and think about the different readings. As you get better at this, you might take the meter readings before your family arrives and then make up your mind in advance.

Raffay · Dec 17, 2013

That's exactly what I did the last time, as I was too confused I took the reading from the side of the face facing the window and opened up two stops. But the. How do I cater to the shadows or for that matter expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.

Cheers

Raffay

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Raffay · Dec 18, 2013

Here is the negative, do you think the shadow areas have some detail or the detail is completely lost? I am not sure why is it coming upside down.

Bill Burk · Dec 18, 2013

I have an idea that may help get us some numbers...

You use VueScan, which has a preference setting that allows you to read density values from the negative.

Prefs, Enable density display.

Then use the Ctrl key to read out densities.

Let us know some of the density readings and how they relate to your measured light readings. Density readings go right to my graph...

Raffay · Dec 18, 2013

Window frame is 1.40
Brightest side of face 1.30
Dark side of the face 0.70
Darkest area below the left ear 0.26

I have no idea what this all means but its fun...

Raffay · Dec 18, 2013

A simple question, if I was to follow the expose the shadows and develop for the highlights rule, then I would take the reading of 1 from the cabinet and close the aperture one stop to put that area in zone IV. But since the face facing the window was at 2.8 then then would go down a stop when in reality it should go up two stops to zone VII. Then if I develop normal I will get an under exposed negative...I am confused.

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D76

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