D23 & Pyrocat-HD Comparison

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Andrew O'Neill

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I was bored yesterday, so I thought I would revisit D-23 since I have quite a bit of sodium sulfite and metol in my darkroom. I wanted to compare it to my main developer, Pyrocat-HD. D-23 was a developer that I some experience with back in the 90's. I went out back behind my house and shot an identical scene on two sheets of 4x5 HP5. One for development in D-23 1+3, and the other for my main developer, Pyrocat-HD. It was a bright sunny afternoon (and breezy)... quite contrasty... about 7 stops between the darkest shadows and bright grass and weeds. The D-23 image is at the top. Both negatives were scanned with black and white points adjusted. I won't tell you which one I prefer... Which do you prefer?
D23_Pyrocat.jpg
 

Eric Rose

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I prefer the second one. Tonality seems more natural. The first ones highlights seem to bloom and loose detail while the second one holds the detail and doesn't blow out. Just mho.
 

Alan9940

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I prefer the second one, too. Much more feeling of the light in the second vs the first.
 

MattKing

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I kind of like the top one better, because I think it favours the mid-tones very slightly. And as Andrew might recall, I am usually drawn to the mid-tones.
I'm concerned though that what I may be seeing may be due more to the combination of the scans and the Photrio uploader than the nature of the negatives themselves.
 

Barry Kirsten

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I agree that the second one has better contrast, but might this be due to the dilution of the D-23? I normally use D-23 at 1+1 which I think might have performed better here in comparison with the Pyrocat.
 

mike c

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Can't really tale a difference, have to scroll to view each sep. It would be easier if pics were side by side to compare.
 

jonasfj

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They look, if not identical, very similar. It strengthens my belief that the choice of developer has nothing to do with making a good picture.
 

Ian Grant

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There's more contrast in the first, better detail in the second. My experience is that's a quality of Pyrocat HD, you're far less likely to get blocked up highlights.

They look, if not identical, very similar. It strengthens my belief that the choice of developer has nothing to do with making a good picture.

It's definitely a factor in helping to make good prints, but it's equally as important to have nailed the correct EI and development time regardless of developer. There are subtle differences between developers, and also film/developer combinations, it's finding what works best for you.

Ian
 

Gerald C Koch

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Comparing D-23 1+3 to pyrocat is a bit of comparing apple and oranges. D-23 is a high sulfite developer which reduces grain whereas pyrocat does the opposite.
 

M Carter

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Anyone see the developer shootout in "Way Beyond Monochrome" - seemed almost like it was written to address the "cult of pyro" (not knocking pyro myself as I've never used it).

As I recall, their conclusion was "not much difference - except for Rodinal, which has a look all its own".

That's certainly been my issue - after years of Rodinal, everything else I try seems "ho-hum". But I do lith prints and really mess with the reality of the scene, so Rodinal just seems to be a head start on that. I have found DD-X to be an impressive developer though - it seems to have a really bold and sharp look, and maintains much better shadow detail.
 

Ian Grant

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Comparing D-23 1+3 to pyrocat is a bit of comparing apple and oranges. D-23 is a high sulfite developer which reduces grain whereas pyrocat does the opposite.

I get excellent fine grain with Pyrocat HD, Pyrocatechin is a fine grain developing agent, I use it for all formats these days 35mm through to 10x8..

Xtol gives finer grain than ID-11/D76 or D23 and I get similar fine grain with Pyrocat HD, you wouldn't be able to tel the difference even with 16x12" prints and larger side by side, so it's only the opposite in being exteremely low in sulphite not end results. Xtol and Pyrocat HD also give sharper negatives because the Sulphite level is actually yoo high in ID-11/D76 and D23, you get better grain structure and an increase in speed and sharpness if you drop the Sulphite level to 75-80g per litre with an MQ or Metol Sulphite developer, examples are Adox Borax MQ, Agfa 44 (Agfa Ansco 17).

Ian
 

jonasfj

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There's more contrast in the first, better detail in the second. My experience is that's a quality of Pyrocat HD, you're far less likely to get blocked up highlights.



It's definitely a factor in helping to make good prints, but it's equally as important to have nailed the correct EI and development time regardless of developer. There are subtle differences between developers, and also film/developer combinations, it's finding what works best for you.

Ian
Yes, it is a factor, but...

When I started shooting film about 8 years ago, I was experimenting a lot with developers. Later I acquired a used enlarger and started to making prints. Then my focus started to shift to worrying about paper.

At some point I realized, partly due to reading interviews and literature by people like Michael Kenna, Bruce Barnbaum and Anton Corbijn, that this has little to do with making a photograph.

It is all about the subject, to capture the gesture, the quality of light etc. These guys shoot Tri-X or TMAX and they develop in HC-110. They moved past the stage where you worry about developer early in their careers.
 

Arvee

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Yes, it is a factor, but...

It is all about the subject, to capture the gesture, the quality of light etc. These guys shoot Tri-X or TMAX and they develop in HC-110. They moved past the stage where you worry about developer early in their careers.

+1000!
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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I did this only to compare... not to say Pyro developers are better than conventional. Funny how some people easily get their knickers knotted so easily. If anyone wants a good read on developers and effect on tones, look for Phil Davis' article he did years ago in PT magazine.
 

Ian Grant

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Yes, it is a factor, but...

When I started shooting film about 8 years ago, I was experimenting a lot with developers. Later I acquired a used enlarger and started to making prints. Then my focus started to shift to worrying about paper.

At some point I realized, partly due to reading interviews and literature by people like Michael Kenna, Bruce Barnbaum and Anton Corbijn, that this has little to do with making a photograph.

It is all about the subject, to capture the gesture, the quality of light etc. These guys shoot Tri-X or TMAX and they develop in HC-110. They moved past the stage where you worry about developer early in their careers.

There's two different points here, I agree about keeping it simple sticking to maybe 2 films and one developer, that's largely what I've done for the last 50+ years but there have been step changes occasionally when films have been discontinued, or I felt it worth trying a different film or developer.

For years I used FP4 in ID-11 (D76) I also usedb HP5 in Microphen but that was for concert photography and I switched to XP1 and pushed that and later XP2 in C41 chemistry but taht's not mainstream. I tried Adox Borax MQ and found that gave me better fine grain, speed (shadow detail) tonality and sharpness so switched, this was an improvement that others saw, I was mixing chemistry for two other commercial photographers, we all used replenished developers.

After 20+ years of using FP4 and ex-Government FP3 as a teenager, I wanted a cnage in approach, a re-think, I tested a Agfapan 100 & 25 and FP4 in a few developers and settled on Rodinal and AP100 35mm, 120, & 5x4 and AP25 in a roll film back with my 5x4 camera. There was a step change in negative/print quality, the finest grained prints I'd seen in the late 1980s with a 100 ISO film were made with AP100 and Rodinal and that's low Sulphite when dilute.

I needed a back-up film as sometimes AP100 and later APX100 were out of stock and soon after the new Tmax films filled the gap perfectly, after testing same dev times but half the box speed gave me inter-changeable results with equally fine grain and sharpness. So when Agfa pulled out Tmax became my main film, I tried it in Pyrocat HD and found it was like Podinal on steroids, a marriage made in heaven.

But then Tmax availability was extremely poor when I was living abroad and I was surprised how easy Fomapan was to find, that's Turkey and then South America, so I bought some and tested it then bought more, I'd also found a couple of rolls of Delta 100 . When next back in the UK (about 10/ years ago) I stocked up with 120 & 5x4 Delta 100, 120 Delta 400 and 5x4 HP5 which I use for hand-held LF work.

I think a second point is once you have sufficient craft you can quickly test, evaluate, and use any film. I've used quite a lot of EFKE 25, Fortepan 200, as well as the Foma films mentioned earlier and there are differences mainly with the Fortepan 200 but only with grain in smaller formats, not an issue when I only use it for 10x8" :D


I did this only to compare... not to say Pyro developers are better than conventional. Funny how some people easily get their knickers knotted so easily. If anyone wants a good read on developers and effect on tones, look for Phil Davis' article he did years ago in PT magazine.

That's implicit in your post :D

I'd actually say I'd be equally happy using replenished Xtol or Pyrocat HD if I didn't have a choice, although the Pyrocat HD negatives would be slightly easier to print, that's from rather a lot of experience .

Ian
 
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Andrew O'Neill

Andrew O'Neill

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Testing film and developers is all part of being a photographer. I've been doing it for 30 years. Some people get all uptight about this... a position I find quite strange. My friend is a blues musician. He told me he regularly "tests" guitars, with different strings, etc. What's the difference?
 

jonasfj

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Testing film and developers is all part of being a photographer. I've been doing it for 30 years. Some people get all uptight about this... a position I find quite strange. My friend is a blues musician. He told me he regularly "tests" guitars, with different strings, etc. What's the difference?
Well, anyways, I looked at your photographs and your work is both impressive and beautiful!
 

pdeeh

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Comparing D-23 1+3 to pyrocat is a bit of comparing apple and oranges. D-23 is a high sulfite developer which reduces grain whereas pyrocat does the opposite.

But at 1+3 the sulfite is at 25g/l, which is at least half the optimal concentration of 50-80g/l for solvent action surely?

(I may be misremembering of course, but I'm pretty sure I got that number from a post of Gerald's :smile:)
 

Ian Grant

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I find both very unsatisfactory but that may well be due to the scanning process

I would be very much interested how they actually print on conventional paper.

I suspect that's the scan and resizing, but something I've notice when adding images here and another forum that the images showing in a page are not as sharp as the same image viewed on it's own - that's with an image hosted elsewhere and linked to, this one's an attachment so uploaded to here, there have been comments about this in the past. It's something linked to the forum software.

My experience is that Pyrocat HD negatives scan easily and also print easily in the darkroom. I've been scanning negatives recently that go back over the past 30 years and there is a correlation between ease of analog printing and scanning with all the film/developer combinations I've used in that time. A friend who's an ex Ilford engineer uses a hybrid work flow, me makes negatives a touch softer than I would for darkroom printing, he's probably doing the equivalent of my N-1 development.

Ian
 

Ian Grant

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Testing film and developers is all part of being a photographer. I've been doing it for 30 years. Some people get all uptight about this... a position I find quite strange. My friend is a blues musician. He told me he regularly "tests" guitars, with different strings, etc. What's the difference?

I think what's missed sometimes is that testing isn't about just switching developer and/or film and giving the combination for a while, it's the same as your musician friend he wouldn't switch to different strings and expect to go play a concert. It's the testing side by side the critical comparisons.

Although I'm predominantly an LF worker with some MF as well I've always done my comparative testing using 35mm film for three reasons really, keep the cost down, efficiency - I can split a roll of film to test in different developers, and lastly it's easier to see any differences in grain, sharpness, etc in a 10x8 print, or enlarged section. Having made a choice(s) it's then fine tuning to find the effective EI and development time that suits the way I work.

Ian
 
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