D23 - After mixing

[What About Bob]

Just a quickie question. I have been reading about the mixing of D76 but didn't find anything on D23 about it. After mixing D23 do I need to wait to use it, until it settles in like D76?

Thanks

 

[What About Bob]

Looks like I left out the "I" in mixing in the title. Anyway I can fix that?

Update - thanks for the correction to title.

 

[retina_restoration]

Just a quickie question. I have been reading about the mixing of D76 but didn't find anything on D23 about it. After mixing D23 do I need to wait to use it, until it settles in like D76?

Thanks

Nope. D-23 is ready to use immediately.

 

[MattKing]

Looks like I left out the "I" in mixing in the title. Anyway I can fix that?

If it isn't within the short term editing time window, you can either hope that a moderator sees the request in your thread (not so effective) or "Report" the post and request the edit (much more effective).
In this case, the first method will work .

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

It was only the original, un-buffered, recipe for D-76 that increased in activity in the few days after it was made up with water. The hydroquinone reacted to produce s. hydroxide, that in turn made the developer more alkaline and thus more active. The D-76d recipe uses both boric acid and borax to stabilize the pH and can be used immediately after mixing - as can Kodak's D-76 and Ilford's ID-11.

As D-23 has no hydroquinone, the problem does not arise.

 

[artonpaper]

I have used quite a bit of the D23 and D23 two bath. I've always been able to use it right away. One trick is, before putting adding the Metol, put in a pinch of sodium sulfite, then the Metol, then the rest of the sodium sulfite. I usually start with water at 100°F. After starring very well and dissolving everything, I add the remaining cold water to top it up to a liter, That helps bring the temperature down to processing range. That's the only drawback to using it immediately.

 

[chuckroast]

Just a quickie question. I have been reading about the mixing of D76 but didn't find anything on D23 about it. After mixing D23 do I need to wait to use it, until it settles in like D76?

Thanks

Not sure about the "settling". If you mix the components properly at the correct temp, there should be virtually no precipitate, certainly not by the time the solution has cooled to room temp (you should wait for that before using it).

 

[What About Bob]

Thanks everyone. I used to mix prepackaged powders back in the 90s. This will be the first time mixing from raw.

 

[What About Bob]

Not sure about the "settling". If you mix the components properly at the correct temp, there should be virtually no precipitate, certainly not by the time the solution has cooled to room temp (you should wait for that before using it).

Is there a sweet spot temperature for mixing and if so any tolerances +/-?

 

[retina_restoration]

Is there a sweet spot temperature for mixing and if so any tolerances +/-?

If you're referring specifically to D-23, it's the easiest developer to assemble, and with only Sodium sulfite and Metol involved, warm water is sufficient: about 85-90 F does the job (up to100F won't cause problems, but temps below 80F will result in taking longer to dissolve the two dry components).
As others have mentioned, put a pinch of the sulfite in the water before adding the Metol. This scavenges the dissolved oxygen from the water so that it doesn't oxidize prematurely.

 

[pentaxuser]

Is there a sweet spot temperature for mixing and if so any tolerances +/-?

It looks as if this is about 50 degrees Centigrade but a couple of degrees either side is fine. Jon Finch who has a good 10 minute video on this developer simply uses the phrase " around about 50C " so the couple of degrees either side is my interpretation of what "around about " might mean. Based on #10 it looks as if a much lower temp of about 32 C will work so may be the "round about" 50C has more leeway than I had assumed

Here's his video if it helps



pentaxuser

 

[chuckroast]

Is there a sweet spot temperature for mixing and if so any tolerances +/-?

It should not be super touchy. I heat distilled water about 70% of final volume to 110-120F or so.

Put just a pinch of the sodium sulfite in and add the metol.

Stir until fully dissolved.

Add the rest of the sodium sulfite, keep stirring, and top off with room temp distilled water to final volume.

Stir until everything is fully dissolved.

Store in glass bottle.

 

[chuckroast]

It looks as if this is about 50 degrees Centigrade but a couple of degrees either side is fine. Jon Finch who has a good 10 minute video on this developer simply uses the phrase " around about 50C " so the couple of degrees either side is my interpretation of what "around about " might mean. Based on #10 it looks as if a much lower temp of about 32 C will work so may be the "round about" 50C has more leeway than I had assumed

Here's his video if it helps



pentaxuser

It's not super touchy. I use 120F (49C) by default but I am not particularly diligent in the matter. Anything in that general area of temp will work.

 

[What About Bob]

If you're referring specifically to D-23, it's the easiest developer to assemble, and with only Sodium sulfite and Metol involved, warm water is sufficient: about 85-90 F does the job (up to100F won't cause problems, but temps below 80F will result in taking longer to dissolve the two dry components).
As others have mentioned, put a pinch of the sulfite in the water before adding the Metol. This scavenges the dissolved oxygen from the water so that it doesn't oxidize prematurely.

Thanks retina_restoration and others for the pinch of sulfite recommendation.

 

[What About Bob]

I just did the mixing at 100F. It looks like the chemicals did dissolve. Looks slightly milky.

 

[chuckroast]

I just did the mixing at 100F. It looks like the chemicals did dissolve. Looks slightly milky.

So long as it has no particulates in it, it will clear once it cools.

 

[What About Bob]

It should not be super touchy. I heat distilled water about 70% of final volume to 110-120F or so.

Put just a pinch of the sodium sulfite in and add the metol.

Stir until fully dissolved.

Add the rest of the sodium sulfite, keep stirring, and top off with room temp distilled water to final volume.

Stir until everything is fully dissolved.

Store in glass bottle.

Stored it in plastic photo bottle. Didn't have glass.

 

[What About Bob]

So long as it has no particulates in it, it will clear once it cools.

There was only one little dot of precipitate. I went in there and stirred it a little bit and it went away.

 

[What About Bob]

This was fun! Can't wait to start testing this stuff out.

 

[chuckroast]

Stored it in plastic photo bottle. Didn't have glass.

Not sure what volumes you are mixing, but a glass bottle with a polycone style cap is the ideal way store developer. By convention they are brown, but do not have to be, I am told.

Plastics, even those marketed for photographic use, are often semipermeable to air and will foster developer oxidation over the longer run. For now, it's no big deal, but I would definitely look to repurpose a nice glass container. Personally, I mix most developers at least 2l at a time (other than Pyro based ones) so I "repurpose" glass beer growlers. I wash them very thoroughly and put a polycone cap on them to promote a good seal. (You get to drink beer that way too!)

250ml, 500ml, and 1l brown bottles are widely available on eBay and Amazon as necessary but you would be surprised to find sources of reusable glass bottles in your everyday shopping.

 

[What About Bob]

Not sure what volumes you are mixing, but a glass bottle with a polycone style cap is the ideal way store developer. By convention they are brown, but do not have to be, I am told.

Plastics, even those marketed for photographic use, are often semipermeable to air and will foster developer oxidation over the longer run. For now, it's no big deal, but I would definitely look to repurpose a nice glass container. Personally, I mix most developers at least 2l at a time (other than Pyro based ones) so I "repurpose" glass beer growlers. I wash them very thoroughly and put a polycone cap on them to promote a good seal. (You get to drink beer that way too!)

250ml, 500ml, and 1l brown bottles are widely available on eBay and Amazon as necessary but you would be surprised to find sources of reusable glass bottles in your everyday shopping.

I was thinking of those root beer bottles, for the time being until I can get the other brown/amber bottles. There used to be a beer and wine making shop in town but it went out of business some years ago. A dry cleaners is now in its place.

I divided up the liter mix of D23 that I did earlier into two 500ml plastic bottles. These batches I intend on using quickly. My volumes will be small.

I just got done developing the film from earlier today. I settled on the D76 time of 11 minutes at 68F with D23 at 1:1 using Ilford FP4 plus at E.I. 100. The day was sunny with clouds. After being from outside I had a couple of frames left so to finish off the roll I made some inside shots of that Christmas tree that I recently posted here.

I'm getting some Deja-Vu vibes going on here because the quality of this negative takes me back to four years ago when I was playing around with Pyrocat-HD. The scale of tones look visually compressed, soft, like Pyrocat developed film yet without the coloration and with a boatload of detail. I am now very excited to see how these frames print.

I am sticking with this developer for a while. I am out of FP4 plus and will be moving to Kentmere for the time being, I will be able to shoot more. I hope to have something to show from this first D23 developing session. I don't have a film scanner, only a flatbed that will only scan prints. Same flatbed I used to post that recent Christmas tree shot. I am not sure how it views to others. I wonder about this because I had posted a sample of a print scan here four years ago and even though it looked sort of decent on my end, it looked kind of like caca when others viewed it. I am not sure if it was a Windows thing, a scanner thing, a monitor thing or a user error thing. I dumped windows in September of 2021 and migrated to Linux. Haven't looked back since.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The scale of tones look visually compressed, soft, like Pyrocat developed film yet without the coloration and with a boatload of detail.

These qualities are why this simplest of all developers is still around after about a hundred years. Especially when used diluted, it's highly compensating (not quite as much as Pyrocat, but much more so than most other of its contemporaries), and with extended development and reduced agitation can get back most of the speed it loses compared to the standard D-76 while maintaining or even improving its compensating quality.

Even better, if you make up the replenisher and use it replenished (at stock strength, of course) it can be very cheap to use; the only extra chemical in the replenisher (DK-25R) is sodium metaborate, which can be made in process from laundry borax and lye drain opener (much more cheaply than buying metaborate from a supplier like DigitalTruth). John Finch has another video aimed specifically at how to use D-23 in replenishment. I've used it this way; it produces nice negatives and a liter of D-23 will last about 20+ rolls before you run out of the recommended amount of replenisher and need to discard all but 250 ml of the stock solution and top up with fresh stock and start a fresh batch of replenisher.

Anniversary Speed Graphic, 150 mm Componon, .EDU Ultra 400, D-23 replenished stock.

 

[chuckroast]

These qualities are why this simplest of all developers is still around after about a hundred years. Especially when used diluted, it's highly compensating (not quite as much as Pyrocat, but much more so than most other of its contemporaries), and with extended development and reduced agitation can get back most of the speed it loses compared to the standard D-76 while maintaining or even improving its compensating quality.

Even better, if you make up the replenisher and use it replenished (at stock strength, of course) it can be very cheap to use; the only extra chemical in the replenisher (DK-25R) is sodium metaborate, which can be made in process from laundry borax and lye drain opener (much more cheaply than buying metaborate from a supplier like DigitalTruth). John Finch has another video aimed specifically at how to use D-23 in replenishment. I've used it this way; it produces nice negatives and a liter of D-23 will last about 20+ rolls before you run out of the recommended amount of replenisher and need to discard all but 250 ml of the stock solution and top up with fresh stock and start a fresh batch of replenisher.

View attachment 358475

Anniversary Speed Graphic, 150 mm Componon, .EDU Ultra 400, D-23 replenished stock.

I concur with all of this. I now only use D-23 (when I do) as a one-shot developer but when I was still reusing it, I just replenished with fresh stock D-23 and never had an issue.

If you want to go really wild, try D-23 1+9 and add 0.5g/l of sodium hydroxide (lye) to it and semistand process with it for an hour - 2min initial agitation, one 10 second agitation at 31min, out at 60min.
You get razor sharp negs ... arguably too sharp - see the first example below ... but really nice for larger formats. Here are scans of prints made from 35mm and 9x12cm negatives respectively:

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230608-1-12-Tickets.jpg

https://www.tundraware.com/Photography/Gallery/Silver/media/large/20230616-1-91-Barking_Mad.jpg

 

[Donald Qualls]

I just replenished with fresh stock D-23 and never had an issue.

In theory, you should see a slight reduction in activity if you replenish with D-23 stock vs. DK-25R, because the concentration of active metol will fall a little with each roll of film processed until you reach a steady state well below fresh stock (though it is recommended to process six rolls per liter in the fresh stock before you start replenishing with DK-25R -- the reason to keep a quarter batch of the old replenished stock is to "pre-season" so you don't have to do this again). In practice, if you don't replenish for more than about twenty rolls per liter after seasoning, its unlikely most workers would notice the difference, since the stock can be reused for a dozen rolls without either adding time or replenishing, if you choose to go that way. The metaborate in DK-25R slowly pushes up the pH from that of sodium sulfite alone to compensate for this loss of metol concentration. It would (I think) require a higher replenishment rate to self-replenish, and/or settle at a lower activity level as a steady state (and hence require a longer initial seasoning period than with DK-25R).

One of the things I like most about Xtol and its clones/work-alikes is the ability to self-replenish without limit -- but the replenishment rate is pretty high compared to dedicated replenisher systems like D-23/DK-25R or D-76/D-76R (and while D-76R is long gone from commercial sale, Ilford still provides instructions on how to make ID-11 replenisher from two packets of ID-11 dry chemicals).

 

[chuckroast]

In theory, you should see a slight reduction in activity if you replenish with D-23 stock vs. DK-25R, because the concentration of active metol will fall a little with each roll of film processed until you reach a steady state well below fresh stock (though it is recommended to process six rolls per liter in the fresh stock before you start replenishing with DK-25R -- the reason to keep a quarter batch of the old replenished stock is to "pre-season" so you don't have to do this again). In practice, if you don't replenish for more than about twenty rolls per liter after seasoning, its unlikely most workers would notice the difference, since the stock can be reused for a dozen rolls without either adding time or replenishing, if you choose to go that way. The metaborate in DK-25R slowly pushes up the pH from that of sodium sulfite alone to compensate for this loss of metol concentration. It would (I think) require a higher replenishment rate to self-replenish, and/or settle at a lower activity level as a steady state (and hence require a longer initial seasoning period than with DK-25R).

One of the things I like most about Xtol and its clones/work-alikes is the ability to self-replenish without limit -- but the replenishment rate is pretty high compared to dedicated replenisher systems like D-23/DK-25R or D-76/D-76R (and while D-76R is long gone from commercial sale, Ilford still provides instructions on how to make ID-11 replenisher from two packets of ID-11 dry chemicals).

I took a far less sophisticated approach back when I was mostly developing conventionally. I would make up 2 liters of D-23 stock and add 2 more liters of water. Then I split the resulting D-23 1:1 into two 1/2 gal glass beer growlers. One was the "working" developer the other the "replenisher". After each use of the developer, I would top off the working jug with the replenishing jug. When I got to 40- or so 8x10 equivalents processed, I dumped half of the working developer, and refilled with fresh 1:1 stock.

I never had a development failure or any other significant issue doing things this way.

These days, my use of D-23 is almost always in highly dilute, very low agitation contexts, and so it's very much a one shot and done kind of thing. That very long development time covers a multitude of sins, once you master how to avoid bromide drag and other low agitation nasties.

I primarily use Pyrocat-HD in fairly high dilutions and semistand these days, but there are still times when I prefer the D-23 1+9+lye combination for it's razor sharp rendering of the negatives, though only for larger formats.