CURRENT info C-41 chemicals Or C-41 for Dummies????

jimmyp · Oct 1, 2009

I went through the same problem of trying to figure out exactly what part numbers and products I needed. I also read the archives back to pre-history.

I finally went and found a sympathetic lab owner who only processes up to 120 roll film. I explained that I couldn't find a suitable place to have my 4x5 film done, and asked if he could help me get all the right stuff. He set me up
with all the right chemicals and some scribbled instructions for mixing them up. I combined his notes with the z131 publication and jumped in at the deep end.

My minilab friend uses and sells me Fuji/Hunt, but I also substitute the Kodak SM Tank products if I'm near my local camera store and they have them in stock.

Contrary to my expectations, I have found C-41 to be very easy. It must be almost idiot-proof!

domaz · Oct 1, 2009

Formulary is coming out with a C-41 Kit? I am really curious/excited about that news.

jglass · Oct 1, 2009

@Jimmyp: When you use the SM Tank developer, how much of it do you use per roll of 120 or 135?

@domaz: If the formulary does come out with a 4 part kit (dev, bleach, fix, stabilizer), I'm there. Mayb PE could speak to that I believe he has a good relationship with those folks???

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2009

I know that they are working on such a product. I have supplied some technical assistance, but do not know what the status of the project is. Sorry.

PE

naugastyle · Oct 1, 2009

Has anyone tried this?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/218299-REG/Kodak_8740110_Flexicolor_SM_C_41SM_Processing.html

It seems easier & cheaper than buying everything separately (up front anyway--I assume the more expensive quantities are bigger and process more, but there's no indication of volume in this link). But I'm curious about the packaging. Seems more difficult to reuse chemistry, but posts above indicate that Kodak is one-shot unlike Tetenol, or is that only a suggestion?

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2009

Kodak is not one-shot. I use the developer that way for better uniformity, but the rest of the process is not. It can either be used to exhaustion or can be replenished, as you desire. I've done both. They both work just fine.

The chemicals from B&H are premixed for use, and use a different process than the one we are familiar with. It is not replenished and does not use a conventional wash. B&W will not ship these items. In addition, their instructions have cross threaded C-41 with RA4 in the description at the bottom of the page.

PE

MattKing · Oct 1, 2009

naugastyle said:
Has anyone tried this?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/218299-REG/Kodak_8740110_Flexicolor_SM_C_41SM_Processing.html

It seems easier & cheaper than buying everything separately (up front anyway--I assume the more expensive quantities are bigger and process more, but there's no indication of volume in this link). But I'm curious about the packaging. Seems more difficult to reuse chemistry, but posts above indicate that Kodak is one-shot unlike Tetenol, or is that only a suggestion?

This package is designed to process 900 rolls in appropriate equipment. Here is the link:

http://wwwcaen.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/business/retailPhoto/products/chemicals/PF3_1067.pdf

Matt

naugastyle · Oct 1, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak is not one-shot. I use the developer that way for better uniformity, but the rest of the process is not. It can either be used to exhaustion or can be replenished, as you desire. I've done both. They both work just fine.
....
In addition, their instructions have cross threaded C-41 with RA4 in the description at the bottom of the page.

PE

Yeah, I noticed those instructions on the bottom...I was wondering if that's weird but am so unfamiliar with color chemistry I wasn't sure. Thanks for the info.

Basic question: the chemicals in the list posted by Tom Taylor are all very different volumes. But are they meant to develop the same amount of film, due to differing dilutions? Or will some parts simply need to be replaced faster?

Thanks for the info on the processing unit, MattKing. Rather amazing that this can process 900 rolls for $79 when buying separate components will cost so much more...but I guess since it's for a minilab the chems will be used up faster.

Is this tank rinse:http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/218301-REG/Kodak_1925254_Flexicolor_SM_C_41SM_Tank.html the same as "Flexicolor Final rinse and replenisher" as mentioned above? This was the only "rinse" I could find and the photo doesn't show "replenisher" on the label.

Is it ok to mix SM and non-SM chemicals? The rinse is the only one marked SM but there are other versions of developer/bleach that are also SM on the site.

And what's the difference between Bleach Replenisher and Bleach Regenerator?

Sorry...lots of questions.

Photo Engineer · Oct 1, 2009

Kits come in various sizes to make developer or developer replenisher for example or bleach or bleach replenisher. Each kit is different in starting volume and so makes up to a different working solution quantity, but the working solutions are identical in all cases and have the same capacity.

The Flexicolor final rinse is its own replenisher. The bleach replenisher keeps the same tank going by adding new materials, the regenerator takes what you have (Ferrous NTA) and turns it into Ferric NTA or reactivated oxidant. That is the simplest way to put it.

PE

naugastyle · Oct 1, 2009

Great, thanks so much.

jimmyp · Oct 2, 2009

Strad, I use about 270mm for 6 4x5 or 240mls for 1 120 roll. I'm mixing up 1litre at a time and replenishing that. If i was going a few weeks without processing, I would mix up a whole litre instead of replenishing the existing litre.

Jimmy

jglass · Oct 5, 2009

jimmyp, I was the one who asked about the amount of developer per roll. Is a roll of 135 about equal to a roll of 120 in developer use?

If the package of SM Tank developer says it makes 2L, can I safely assume that this will process 8 rolls of 120?

PE: would you comment on how much developer you use per roll since you are using it one-shot? I'm trying to get a grip on the cost per roll here.

jimmyp, if you are replenishing, do you develop 4 rolls or so in that liter you mixed up and then, what, dump some of it and top up with replenisher? What are the quantities on that?

Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2009

JG;

I use Jobo tanks and go by their recommendations exactly. I don't have the figures here, but I do know that each tank has different recomendations even among the various Jobo series. If you use the mfgrs suggested quantities, you cannot go wrong. At least that is what I find with Jobo.

When I used to use SS tanks, I filled them to the top minus enough air space to allow for agitation.

When I use hard rubber tanks, I fill them to the top, but then in that case, I don't consider this single use. I adjust times. It is only when using Jobo and SS tanks that I use the developer one time. I also use a pre-wet with the drum processes.

PE

domaz · Oct 5, 2009

Several of the vendors listed previously also offer the Trebla FilmPAC for about $70. This kit is supposed to have everything needed to process C-41 and does not use BLIX. It's way less expensive than the $257 quoted earlier. You would need to go through a lot of film to make that worthwhile (maybe start your own mini-lab for friends and family?).

jimmyp · Oct 9, 2009

J -

If I process 6 sheets of 4x5 in somewhere around 300ml of developer, I chuck it into my dump bucket and replenish that part with new replenisher. I figure I'm pushing the capacity of the chems according to kodak guidelines, and I usually roll it, which adds a lot of air. I figure that 300mls is done for sure.

What I don't know much about is bleach carry over into my fixer. No matter how much I try to wash after the bleach, my fixer is always turning orange.... problem? I don't know.

hrst · Oct 9, 2009

jimmyp, I find that every processing solution changes color when processing color material. Fixers, wash waters, developers and stops all turn pink. The effect is biggest in the first solutions, dev and stop. I've deducted that sensitizing dyes come off from the film when processing, causing this, and it has no effect in chemicals. This is true to many BW films like TMAX as well. Maybe some products lose their dyes faster (that is, only to developer) than others.

In E6, there is no wash between bleach and fix. The same is true with Ilfochrome. Then again, with C-41, there is a long wash between them. Funny.

brucemuir · Oct 9, 2009

domaz said:
Several of the vendors listed previously also offer the Trebla FilmPAC for about $70. This kit is supposed to have everything needed to process C-41 and does not use BLIX. It's way less expensive than the $257 quoted earlier. You would need to go through a lot of film to make that worthwhile (maybe start your own mini-lab for friends and family?).

I tried finding the Trebla option and although a few places list the "FilmPac" on their websites they don't stock it anymore and I couldn't find it anywhere in the US. It indeed looked like an economical option with the ability to process close to 500 rolls for around 70 bills.

You can still source the individual Trebla components but if I end up going this route I will use Kodak.

It also appears no one that will ship has everything so I'll have to order from 2 places...or maybe take a trip up to NYC so I can walk into B&H.

Such a PITA.

Photo Engineer · Oct 9, 2009

The C-41 and E6 first developers will become colored due to absorber and trimmer dyes in the coating. If you use a pre-wet, this effect takes place in the pre-wet water.

Bleach carry over into the fix is not harmful, but does shorten the life of the fix. In E6, it helps continue some level of bleach action during fixation I suppose.

PE

chorleyjeff · Oct 9, 2009

I have noted the cautionary comments about sing blix and the possibility of incomplete processing of colour negative film. Do the same comments apply to XP2 film?
Cheers
Jeff

Photo Engineer · Oct 9, 2009

chorleyjeff said:
I have noted the cautionary comments about sing blix and the possibility of incomplete processing of colour negative film. Do the same comments apply to XP2 film?
Cheers
Jeff

Only if there is a lot of retained silver. Then you would see it as a change in grain and sharpness. There is no color to affect.

Contrast might be higher depending on the amount of retained silver.

PE

chorleyjeff · Oct 9, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
Only if there is a lot of retained silver. Then you would see it as a change in grain and sharpness. There is no color to affect.

Contrast might be higher depending on the amount of retained silver.

PE

Thanks for reply.
I don't think it is worth the risk of compromising grain and contrast so will not go down that route.
Cheers
Jeff

Photo Engineer · Oct 9, 2009

The XP2 films should be easier to blix than the comparable color films just for reason of thickness. The XP2 films are thinner, being single color.

PE

mtjade2007 · Oct 9, 2009

stradibarrius said:
Can you define "starter" and "replenisher" in the context of developer? Is there a developer that is ready to use once it is mixed to the proper dilution?

I am not sure if your questions are answered. Here are my 2 cents.

Yes, Kodak sells C-41 developer (comes in 3 part called Part A, B and C) that is ready to use when mixed. If a developer is not called a replenisher it is one that after mixing part A, B, C and water it will be ready to use. If it is called a replenisher then you will need to mix the part A, B, C and water still as well as mixing some starter.

Why are the two different developers? The replenisher version is for labs to replenishing their running processor that is constantly consuming the key ingredients in the developer. A developer replenisher has the right ingredients to restore the developer back to what a C-41 developer needs to contain.

So a developer replenisher is not the same as a developer. Most mini labs only buy developer replenisher rather than developer. They constantly replenish their working processor as long as the processor is processing films. They will need fresh developer only when they dump the developer and start with a full tank of fresh developer.

They can produce a fresh tank of developer by adding starter to the replenisher they have. So can we. In fact the replenisher is more available than developer from wholesale suppliers.

There are different versions of developer replenishers. There is at least the standard developer replenisher and developer replenisher LORR. The difference between them is that it takes much less quantity (about half) of developer replenisher LORR to replenish. So this is the more preferred version of the replenisher. This is also called C-41B developer replenisher I believe. This is what I use. I bought mine from a mini lab supplier.

Bleach and Fix all come in replenisher package I believe. They are used for replenishing working processors too. But you don't need a starter to make working bleach or working fix. As PE said they can be used without a starter.

stradibarrius · Oct 10, 2009

jglass said:
More info: Here's a supplier that carries Sm Tank Developer, although in multi-unit batch, with hazardous fee:
http://www.southpointphoto.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=905#details

Here it is from a place in Rochester:
http://www.pdisupply.com/ProductDet...2&CategoryID=9&CFID=27248868&CFTOKEN=78870105

Another:

http://www.pfsny.com/M/Kodak/Kodak-Chemistry/Kodak-SM-Chemistry_.html

Another at $61.02 in TEXAS! like me:
http://www.dillostore.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=121756337

HOWEVER, they say the shipping from Houston to Austin (where I am) is $90.00 minimum cause it has to go on a truck. BUT a local photo lab buys from them and he said the lab might tack my order onto theirs for a minimal fee. Looks like I'll try that to avoid shipping. This stuff is in a new box labelled POISON so they won't air ship it.

Do all of the suppliers you have listed charge a Hazardous shipping fee?

stradibarrius · Oct 10, 2009

mtjade2007 said:
I am not sure if your questions are answered. Here are my 2 cents.

Yes, Kodak sells C-41 developer (comes in 3 part called Part A, B and C) that is ready to use when mixed. If a developer is not called a replenisher it is one that after mixing part A, B, C and water it will be ready to use. If it is called a replenisher then you will need to mix the part A, B, C and water still as well as mixing some starter.

Why are the two different developers? The replenisher version is for labs to replenishing their running processor that is constantly consuming the key ingredients in the developer. A developer replenisher has the right ingredients to restore the developer back to what a C-41 developer needs to contain.

So a developer replenisher is not the same as a developer. Most mini labs only buy developer replenisher rather than developer. They constantly replenish their working processor as long as the processor is processing films. They will need fresh developer only when they dump the developer and start with a full tank of fresh developer.

They can produce a fresh tank of developer by adding starter to the replenisher they have. So can we. In fact the replenisher is more available than developer from wholesale suppliers.

There are different versions of developer replenishers. There is at least the standard developer replenisher and developer replenisher LORR. The difference between them is that it takes much less quantity (about half) of developer replenisher LORR to replenish. So this is the more preferred version of the replenisher. This is also called C-41B developer replenisher I believe. This is what I use. I bought mine from a mini lab supplier.

Bleach and Fix all come in replenisher package I believe. They are used for replenishing working processors too. But you don't need a starter to make working bleach or working fix. As PE said they can be used without a starter.

good answer...

CURRENT info C-41 chemicals Or C-41 for Dummies????

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency