Corporations and Big Boobs – A commentary.

[lxdude]

I have always had a hard time finding TX in 120, not TXP. The only walk-in store in which I have ever seen TX in 120 is Freestyle. Everywhere else, when you say "120 Tri-X", it is assumed you mean TXP, and the TX is not even stocked.

My experience, too. They don't even ask which one.

 

[lxdude]

I must say dr5 certainly came up with a good thread title.

I like big boobs; just not on corporations.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Over the past 10 years, their share price has gone from $60 per share to $6 per share... Kodak's debt to equity ratio is 66... For FY 2009 they had sales of 7.6 billion dollars... Only they lost 233 million dollars. That is a quarter billion dollar loss in one year.

Ironic, isn't it?

Wasn't the above nightmarish scenario precisely what they had hoped to avoid by decisively making the switch from analog to digital? By letting their former competitors become the last man (men) standing and drinking the ceremonial glass of cognac? By convincing me and everyone else to buy an Easyshare? Or cheap ink?

I wonder what went wrong??

Ken

 

[jeroldharter]

Ironic, isn't it?

Wasn't the above nightmarish scenario precisely what they had hoped to avoid by decisively making the switch from analog to digital? By letting their former competitors become the last man (men) standing and drinking the ceremonial glass of cognac? By convincing me and everyone else to buy an Easyshare? Or cheap ink?

I wonder what went wrong??

Ken

The biggest fall the hardest. But I cling to my TMY-2 and Xtol.

 

[fotch]

Hey, it’s funny, that some complain that a huge company is not as flexible as they are, and then complain that they cannot change or find a flexible solution because they are small. Which is it?

Small companies and entrepreneurs have a big advantage in that they can turn on a dime. Big companies just cannot do that. So, it’s a problem for both. But every problem has new opportunities. Some things you cannot do anything about, like this economy. Those who adapt will succeed.

Frankly, I would rather have the problem of finding a work around of no longer having 220 than the problems Kodak is facing.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

The biggest fall the hardest. But I cling to my TMY-2 and Xtol.

As do I to my forlorn Kodachrome.

Or at least my final eight rolls. I've finally been reduced by Kodak to trying to decide which of those remaining iconic boxed rolls will become my ceremonial "last man standing" unopened souvenir.

I've always said that if Kodak ever discontinued both Tri-X and Kodachrome I'd know the final plunge couldn't be all that far off. Never expected all of their B&W papers to go even earlier.

Ken

 

[Anon Ymous]

...I never said 'lets punish Kodak and not use them'. I said they were not being smart by eliminating a staple film and the reasons from a lab perspective as to why TXP was not selling. STILL, @ 5% of their total films sales TXP sales is nothing to shake a stick at!...

The above is not true I'm afraid. According to the email from (there was a url link here which no longer exists), TXP production was less than 5% of total Tri-X production, not total film:

You may be surprised to learn that our total TXP 320 -120 & 220 format production is less than 5% of our total Tri-X production, and it is this limited level of photographer and market demand that drive these sorts of difficult decisions.

That changes the scenario dramatically, doesn't it?

 

[clayne]

Posted wirelessly..

Back in 2003, IIRC, the Great Yellow Father announced that they would remove themselves from the FILM business in seven years. Looks like they're right about on schedule to me.

Considering how much money Kodak still makes off of film that would be quite a stupid decision don't you think?

 

[PKM-25]

I can also see David is concerned and upset about the decision, the impact on his livelihood, but I also see the plugging of a business mixed in the post.

I don't give a hoot if it's there or not (heck I don't even know what a DR5 is), but looks to me like there is a commercial there.

Yep, just like Simon Galley from Ilford does and what we would hope that Kodak would do more of on here, marketing a service or a product to core end users who will in turn, use the product or service and then spread the word.

If you knew what dr5 is, humble pie would abound. I want to be able to go full steam ahead next year with a book project that is waiting for me to be done with Kodachrome in less than a year's time. dr5 staying in business is key to the style of this book and exhibit. Some of the prints being large sized Ilfochromes from Tech Pan in dr5.

If you want film to stay around, why on earth would you condemn a great niche service provider like dr5 from saying what they do?

That's just insane....

 

[lxdude]

As do I to my forlorn Kodachrome.

Or at least my final eight rolls. I've finally been reduced by Kodak to trying to decide which of those remaining iconic boxed rolls will become my ceremonial "last man standing" unopened souvenir.


Ken

Gee whiz, guy, shoot that last roll! There's going to be plenty of "souvenir" Kodachrome around next year. Hell, you can still find boxes of Kodachrome II on auction sites. How about this- stick a roll of cheap film inside the Kodachrome box and reseal it. Who's gonna know? And it will look just as good on your shelf. For your own little private joke stick a roll of Velvia in there.
It's obscene to waste that last roll of Kodachrome just for a souvenir!

Do the right thing by your Kodachrome. Use it! You'll be happier looking at the slides than the box, guaranteed.

 

[lxdude]

If you want film to stay around, why on earth would you condemn a great niche service provider like dr5 from saying what they do?

Thanks for saying that, Dan. I think dr5 (David) was speaking as both a film user and a businessperson.
I think his emotion made it clear he wasn't using the post to promote his business. His advertising does that.

I'm reminded of an internet group for V-4 Honda motorcycles I used to be on. A member was in the business of overhauling and modifying the engines, from enhanced reliability and performance on the street, to all out drag racing. He answered many questions posed to him in the group, and would even invite people to call him so he could listen to engine problems over the phone. A good guy, and a great resource. He knew his stuff, no BS.

I once asked on the group if anyone knew where I could find a part I couldn't get from Honda. He replied that he had new ones and stated the price. He was immediately flamed by several for using the group for his commercial gain, including by an admin! His post was equated with a commercial for his company. Sheesh! He was being helpful! All he was doing was giving me information I needed, no different than if another member had offered me a used part and stated the price, which was done all the time. Though in that case no one did. If he'd not replied I would have SOL.

So David owns dr5. So he commented in Kodak axing Tri-X 320. That doesn't make his post some kind of crass attempt at a commercial, which to me is what was implied.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I wish Kodak good luck in their future endeavors. I don't think people like DeSabato make these decisions lightly.

It will be interesting to see what Kodak is going to do with sheet film now. For b&w there will be Tmax 100 & 400, and nothing else.

I'm not going to state my preference here, because it means nothing to the world. I hope those that use TXP, especially in 220 format, can find a useful alternative. I do know this, though, that I can make Tmax 400 negs print almost exactly like TXP, by shooting and processing it differently. From my Hasselblad, I can't really tell a difference between the prints, not enough to count, and if you didn't know they were from different films, you would be hard pressed to even notice. There is a way with other films. But the loss of the 220 format is hard.

So I also wish those that used TXP the best of luck in finding an alternative.

- Thomas

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...There is a question here of 'profit' and 'losing money'. Is Kodak 'losing money' on TXP? I doubt it...

In 120/220, it probably is.

...Is Kodak committed to photography or the dollar?...

Given its fiduciary responsibility to Kodak shareholders, the answer is "the dollar" by law.

 

[bill schwab]

TXP is one of the best B&W films on the market. I don't think that there is much of an argument to this fact in this arena.

As much as I empathize with those that are losing their film, I've always thought of the 320 as the anemic and thin younger sibling of Tri-X. Never much liked the stuff and was always upset when some unknowing sales clerk gave me that instead of the real deal.

These grown men and women know how to do their jobs. In this circumstance, this is not just a numbers game.

Yes, they do and yes, it is. This was posted in another thread from Scott P. DiSabato at Kodak via David Goldfarb...

"You may be surprised to learn that our total TXP 320 -120 & 220 format production is less than 5% of our total Tri-X production, and it is this limited level of photographer and market demand that drive these sorts of difficult decisions. Kodak will continue to offer products where photographer demand makes it a viable offering within our professional film portfolio."

I too am a small business person and I would say they've made a pretty sound, although disappointing decision.

...given a choice between 'TX' & 'TXP', Kodak should pick the better of these 2 films and make TXP the "TriX" film across the board.

All I can say to this is... YUCK!

 

[Martin Reed]

The above is not true I'm afraid. According to the email from (there was a url link here which no longer exists), TXP production was less than 5% of total Tri-X production, not total film:
That changes the scenario dramatically, doesn't it?

I've checked our sales of TriX 120 vs TXP 220 for the last year on the system here at Silverprint. The 220 accounts for almost exactly 15% of the spools sold.

While significantly less, I was surprised the 220 was a slice as big as that. Assuming most pro. dealer sales are about the same ratio as ours, one would have said there was life there yet. But maybe a majority of dealers dropped it a while back?

 

[dr5chrome]

..i like's healthy debate..

regards

As much as I empathize with those that are losing their film, I've always thought of the 320 as the anemic and thin younger sibling of Tri-X. Never much liked the stuff and was always upset when some unknowing sales clerk gave me that instead of the real deal.
Yes, they do and yes, it is. This was posted in another thread from Scott P. DiSabato at Kodak via David Goldfarb...

"You may be surprised to learn that our total TXP 320 -120 & 220 format production is less than 5% of our total Tri-X production, and it is this limited level of photographer and market demand that drive these sorts of difficult decisions. Kodak will continue to offer products where photographer demand makes it a viable offering within our professional film portfolio."

I too am a small business person and I would say they've made a pretty sound, although disappointing decision.

All I can say to this is... YUCK!

 

[dr5chrome]

Cheryl; please go to, or call Travis @ DPP or give me a ring as I am placing a rather large order of TXP for the freezer. I used to shoot this film exclusively as well back in the day [220]. He can put your order in with mine. I suggest you do this now as supplies will not last, especially 220.
..or give Eric a call @ Freestyle.

dw

For this weekend, I've decided to resort to 35mm and Tri-X 400. It will be sufficient for this project. After that, I don't know. I'll figure something out. I absolutely hate Tmax with a passion, so it won't be that. I am not terribly fond of Tri-X 400, but it may be the lesser evil. I do plan to do more tests with HP5; it's never been my favorite, but maybe I can find a way to like it more. The biggest pain factor is that whatever I go to will have to be 120. I resent that.

I just can't believe that there is no other 220 B&W option. Unbelievable.

 

[Cainquixote]

don't buy all of it before monday, i have to wait till payday to order more

 

[bill schwab]

I know... Tomato / Tomato. I do understand. If this were TX, I'd be hoppin' mad too!

 

[DLawson]

I can also see David is concerned and upset about the decision, the impact on his livelihood, but I also see the plugging of a business mixed in the post.

I didn't see a "plugging" in David's post. I saw a reference to his business (and a touch of pride in his work, which by reputation I assume is earned).

This seemed appropriate considering how many people have suggested that he (or anyone voicing similar views) knows nothing about business.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

How is it that sheet sales of the emulsion are stable, but not medium format? If anything, I have always had a hard time finding TX in 120, not TXP. The only walk-in store in which I have ever seen TX in 120 is Freestyle. Everywhere else, when you say "120 Tri-X", it is assumed you mean TXP, and the TX is not even stocked.

We live in different worlds. In New York,
you go into B+H or Calumet or Adorama
and ask for a brick of Tri-X 120, you get
the 400 flavor. If you ask for 320, some
clerks will tell you it doesn't exist. I know
some people are invested in 320 and I do
rely on it for sheet film, but I've always
shot the 400 in rolls -- I won't miss the
320 rolls in my own work, but I sympathize
with those who will.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

As much as I empathize with those that are losing their film, I've always thought of the 320 as the anemic and thin younger sibling of Tri-X.

Amen to that my brother.

 

[MattKing]

I too think that David's (dr5's) beginning post to this thread is fine.

He might get less flack here, however, if he would advertise (it's really inexpensive) or at least subscribe .

Just saying ....

Matt

 

[lilmsmaggie]

First a disclaimer: I am not a professional photographer, I don’t work in the photographic/camera supply, manufacturing or distribution arena, and I don’t repair of service photographic gear. I am ultimately supremely unqualified to discuss or debate about photographic merchandising, advertising or marketing.

I’m a noob; an amateur, a lover of art and artistic expression. I love film. I love digital. I love art in all its forms. I realize also that people need a forum in which to vent, express and to share.

Having said that, it would seem that APUG, its members, sponsors and affiliates; together with other photographic forums and/or user groups need to realize their strength and influence in this field.

Rather than bemoan and complain, or trumpeting such boasts as “I’ll just fall back on my stash in the fridge ...,” etc. it would seem more constructive and productive to take advantage of that strength by coordinating a collective effort to influence decisions made by corporations such as Kodak which produce imaging and photographic materials and equipment. There is no reason for aficionados of film products to relegate themselves to a “niche” position in a global marketplace. None. But if you regard yourselves as such, and identify with the label of being a “niche” and be content by responding as such, then there you will remain.

IMHO, there are enough organizations such as APUG, as well as professional photographers and individual amateurs who should consider becoming more of an advocacy group. Yes, this has political overtones but if that’s what it takes, then none of us should be shy about supporting efforts that benefit not only consumers of film products and services but those who produce the materials that make the consumption possible.

 

[bill schwab]

..it would seem more constructive and productive to take advantage of that strength by coordinating a collective effort to influence decisions made by corporations such as Kodak...

Unfortunately we do. We speak with our pocketbooks and wallets and apparently we're not speaking loud enough to keep the machines running. All the organizing and letter writing in the world isn't going to do any good unless people are buying the product. A very sad fact for people that do what we do.

PS... You're qualified enough to discuss as anyone here is!