Copal #1 repairs

[Craig]

I bought a lens with a Copal #1 shutter and the blades were stopped part way open. There is a video on youtube showing the repair of a Copal #0, so I followed that and took my shutter apart. Mine is a chrome ring Copal, and the video is a black ring, so there were a few differences. I also took photos at every part removal to help with reassembly.

After I took the shutter speed rings off and turned it over to remove the aperture control ring a very tiny stepped shaft fell out, so I have no idea where it came from. It's 0.090" long and the larger diameter is 0.040" and the smaller is 0.027.

I took the shutter apart, reseated the shutter blades and they operate properly with the open/close lever. Aperture blades operate properly, I didn't have to touch those. It's reassembled up to the point of having the chrome ring in place, and it doesn't operate properly. With the shutter closed the firing lever won't move, it will with the shutter open. I can cock it, and I immediately hear the clockwork mechanism of the slow speeds, but it won't fire, as the trip lever is rigid. If I open the shutter, the trip lever moves freely, but doesn't trip the shutter. However moving the cocking lever inward to the normal position will fire the shutter.

With the shutter open I can cock it, and moving the cocking lever back to rest trips the shutter. I moved the ring through the speeds and they sound right, however the mechanism only works with the shutter open, and the usual trip lever does nothing.

Ideas what is assembled wrong? And where does that tiny stepped shaft go? I don't see any obvious place for it, but I also didn't remove the mechanism between the trip lever and the cocking lever.

 

[shutterfinger]

Pictures of the shaft and the shutter with the speed ring off will help me figure where the shaft goes.
Look at the bottom side of the cover/face plate, does it have machined recesses? Yes- they mate with various pins/lever tops and have to be aligned correctly. The center lock ring screws down and if too tight will cause the shutter to run slowly, too lose and the face plate will move with the speed ring. No-different design than I'm familiar with.

 

[Craig]

I have a second lens, identical to the one with the bad shutter, and I was looking closely at it after I posted. Turns out I had the shutter blades in backwards - they wouldn't fully open. I've fixed that now, and comes to the next problem. The shutter open and closes smoothly by hand, but once I add the mechanism to connect to the opening lever it doesn't operate fully. Looks like the spring pressure is insufficient to move the shutter fully open or closed. I'm sure I have it installed incorrectly, but I can't figure out what I've done wrong. It's the copper/bronze coloured spring wrapped around the screw head at 12 O'clock:

Here is the shaft:

And as you requested, an overall view of the shutter although with the slow speed mechanism removed:

I have scaled down all these photos to make them fit the forum, I can make them bigger easily.

Yes, the underside of the black shutter speed plate has 2 radial slots in it - one is aligned with the 1 second speed, the other about 110 degrees clockwise when looking at the speeds.

 

[shutterfinger]

Shutter opening springs usually apply 3 to 5 grams of pressure to the blade mechanism to open the blades. If the blades do not open fully then there is something in the controller path preventing them from opening or the spring or actuator is not set properly. Some shutters open springs can be adjusted to apply sufficient pressure to open the blades. The blade controller should move with the weight of a 1/4 inch long down feather applied to it regardless of starting position.

 

[Craig]

In the last photo I can open and close the shutter using the post at about 4 o'clock and the blades move easily and smoothly. That's what makes me think something in the spring position isn't right, as it doesn't want to open or close fully under the spring pressure.

 

[Craig]

I did further study of my disassembly photos and I now have the shutter blades opening and closing smoothly with the preview lever. There is an additional spring I hadn't put back when I was testing it at first.

One thing that was present when I got the lens was the firing lever doesn't move, it's locked in the outward position and can't be depressed. I can cock the shutter, but can't fire it at the moment. I put the chrome speed ring back in place (without securing it, just set in place) and it rotates through all the speeds, but the lever won't fire the shutter.

I'm assuming that has something to do with the tiny stepped shaft that fell out when I took the speed ring off. The head is flat and there are no threads, so it looks like a press fit - somewhere!

 

[shutterfinger]

Do I need to take the front cover and speed ring off my black face #1, take a picture and post it?
If the blade opening spring can be repositioned then I would move it to apply light pressure on the controller lug with the blades wide open then secure it with its mount screw.

 

[Craig]

I think I have the blade spring solved, they open and close fully now with the preview lever.

However, the next problem is getting the shutter to trip, the lever is solid and won't move to fire the shutter. Ideas on that?

 

[shutterfinger]

Whenever I encountered such I carefully studied the lever while trying to operate it to see what had it blocked. Next I tried moving the lever holding the shutter open to see hoe it needed to move to release the shutter. This resulted in me finding something installed incorrectly of an intermediate lever bent slightly preventing correct operation.

It will be a day or two before I can go further in depth.

 

[Craig]

Yes, I need to ponder it further. It appears that when the shutter is cocked and the preview lever closed, the mechanism still thinks the shutter is open, and prevents the shutter from firing. I have to look at the other side of the mechanism to see if there is something out of alignment.

 

[shutterfinger]

After looking inside my #1 I believe the "tiny stepped shaft " that fell out either broke off a lever or came out of the main plate. Pins/posts are pressed in and one may have come out. Look for a unused hole that a spring or lever may mount on or a broken off point on a lever.
These pictures may help.

 

[Craig]

Thanks for the photos. Interesting that my shutter has quite a bit more mechanism on the left side. I will compare both closely.

 

[shutterfinger]

Does yours have flash bulb sync (M and or F) or a self timer function?

 

[Craig]

Has the M and X contacts, no self timer.

 

[shutterfinger]

The extra mechanism in your shutter is the M sync delay.

 

[Craig]

Makes sense. I will have to test and see if it works.

 

[shutterfinger]

A screw appears to be broken off on your shutter, cocking mechanism to delay arm at the cocking connection.

 

[Craig]

I have the shutter back together and it works. I don't have a shutter speed tester, but the speeds sound right. I never did find where that stepped shaft fit, there was no obvious empty holes when compared to the other photos. Maybe it comes from the M/X sync mechanism? Not sure. There was no place it could fit on the chrome speed ring. Other thing that is missing is a spring to return the cocking arm, it moves freely. Maybe the spring disappeared when I took it apart, or was never there, as it appeared someone had been in there before me, some of the screw heads showed they had been removed before with a too big screwdriver.

Yes, that screw did shear off when I tried to undo it. I have to figure out what thread it is and drill it out and retap the hole. Stronger than I think I guess, as I was using jewellers screwdrivers that don't have a big handle. I'm used to model trains that have miniature screws, so I shouldn't have sheared it off. Maybe whoever was in there before me used blue or red Loctite on it?

In the end it was the brass shaft at about the 7:30 position, that was holding the C shaped check arm that engages the release lever too tightly. It was binding and the return spring couldn't bring it to the open position. Loosening the shaft 1/16 of a turn did the trick. I put a tiny amount of low strength Loctite for miniature screws on it to hold the shaft in place.

 

[peter k.]

BTW.. The gentleman that has been helping you posted this in making a shutter tester.. made one and it has been a great help..
https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6105

 

[Craig]

I hadn't realized that was him over on the Graflex site! My next project is rebuilding a 1926 4X5 Graflex RB, the shutter curtains have dried out and gone hard and cracked.

 

[John Koehrer]

The remains of the broken screw may back out, there shouldn't be anything holding it in position.
Just insert a screwdriver & unscrew it.

 

[Hai LT]

Hi everyone.
I have problem when reinstall may Copal No1. I have some detail and don't know exactly where is position.
So can you help me identify position?
Thanks