Converting C-41/E-6 BLIX into Separate Bleach and Fixer

Rudeofus · May 19, 2015

Paul Verizzo said:
what is this acid sulfide bath you are referring to? Is this something like thiosulfate in B&W reversal to clear the highlights?

Remember that colour development works because developable silver halide oxidizes colour developer, and oxidized colour developer reacts with coupler to form dye. If you have carry over colour developer when bleach enters the stage, strong bleach will oxidise colour developer which in turn will form unwanted dye. For this reason PE recommends a sulfite clearing bath, with a suitable recipe provided (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Paul Verizzo · May 19, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
I said "ACID SULFITE" which is a different animal.

PE

Indeed you did! Bad Scotch! Bad Scotch!

Standing corrected, what is it?

Paul Verizzo · May 19, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Remember that colour development works because developable silver halide oxidizes colour developer, and oxidized colour developer reacts with coupler to form dye. If you have carry over colour developer when bleach enters the stage, strong bleach will oxidise colour developer which in turn will form unwanted dye. For this reason PE recommends a sulfite clearing bath, with a suitable recipe provided (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

the link doesn't say what the 5-20 grams of what is; I presume sodium sulfite?

Photo Engineer · May 19, 2015

The Sulfite removes color developer from solution and also can react with Ferricyanide if you get any in the clearing bath too soon.

Develop, clear (in sulfite), wash, bleach in Ferri, wash, fix, wash, final rinse or stab.

PE

Paul Verizzo · May 19, 2015

Thanks for the time to give me this great advice, guys.

Next step: homebrew C-41. Maybe towards the end of the year.

sfaber17 · May 26, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Another thing we need to consider is ionic strength: the more ions you stuff into a solution, the less effective they will be. As a result, I predict lower bleaching speed from Potassium Bromide plus Ammonium Sulfate than from Ammonium Bromide.

Maybe the real reason it becomes less effective a higher ionic strength is that the silver salts become more soluble at higher ionic strength (given there are no common ions with the silver salt, as would be the case with ammonium sulfate). This may be counter intuitive but it is a fact in general.
Thanks for the fantastic thread, it should be a classic.

trythis · Jul 23, 2015

Coming to this discussion with almost no chemistry experience. I just got a C 41 kit with a two part liquid Blix. Says Rollei compard in instructions but bottles say Maco. Is there somewhere I can do a bleach and fix in separate steps by not mixing the Blix part A part B?

Thanks

Typos made on a tiny phone...

Rudeofus · Jul 24, 2015

trythis, I just looked at the MSDS for this kit, and it suggests that they use Ammonium Ferric PDTA as bleaching agent (see my list in section 2.1), which is very unusual for a BLIX kit. Can you tell me the colour and consistency of BX part A, please?

Either way, BX part A and water alone will most likely not make a working bleach.

trythis · Jul 24, 2015

Water consistency with just enough leg (to use a wine tasting term) to show sort of a green color briefly on the surface of the bottle while shaking it. Both bottles are the same nearly colorless plastic. Almost clear.
Its a little like looking at motor oil. In that it looks much darker when you're looking through more of the liquid and when it's very thin and has a very light tint to it like a brownish green tea. Its not thick like oil at all though.
I haven't opened it but hopefully that tells you something useful.

Typos made on a tiny phone...

Photo Engineer · Jul 24, 2015

That resembles the Kodak Bleach III and the fix would have to be C41 compatible. That does not mean that mixing them as a bleach then fix would be straightforward.

PE

Rudeofus · Jul 24, 2015

PE, trythis, the instructions specifically state that BX parts A and B plus water are meant to form a BLIX. This is very odd, since Ammonium Ferric PDTA is more powerful oxidizer than the commonly used Ammonium Ferric EDTA, and I would have expected it to eat up the Thiosulfate rather quickly. To give you some impression: Tetenal claims 6 months working solution shelf life for their BLIX (based on Ammonium Ferric EDTA), even if working solution has been used, whereas Farmer's reducer (Ferricyanide plus Thiosulfate) has working solution shelf life measured in hours. Ammonium Ferric PDTA is somewhere between Ferricyanide and Ammonium Ferric EDTA, so I wonder how long such a BLIX lasts.

If you want to convert this into a separate bleach&fixer kit, you can use pretty much the same instructions which I wrote for the other BLIX kits: Make a bleach by using BX part A, water and Potassium Bromide. Use the same amount of BX part A per liter bleach that you would have used for making BLIX according to Rollei's instructions. Toss out BX part B (or use it to fix uncritical B&W work) and get some neutral fixer (like TF-5) instead.

trythis · Jul 24, 2015

Rudeofus said:
If you want to convert this into a separate bleach&fixer kit, you can use pretty much the same instructions which I wrote for the other BLIX kits: Make a bleach by using BX part A, water and Potassium Bromide. Use the same amount of BX part A per liter bleach that you would have used for making BLIX according to Rollei's instructions. Toss out BX part B (or use it to fix uncritical B&W work) and get some neutral fixer (like TF-5) instead.

Ok, and whats the shelf life?
Thanks!

Typos made on a tiny phone...

Photo Engineer · Jul 24, 2015

It would probably have a very short shelf life, but high activity compared to "red" blixes for film.

PE

trythis · Jul 24, 2015

I have gone back and read this thread 5 times now and think I get it. Having 0 chemistry classes its written well enough for me to understand it in a general since.

Am I to buy potassium bromide in powder form and mix to some concentration of it and substitute it for BX-B. Or just add a some quantity of powder to the dilution of BX-A and water.

In either case what concentration or how much powder would the potassium bromide need to be. I have a triple beam balance, but no ph meter.

Photo Engineer said:
It would probably have a very short shelf life, but high activity compared to "red" blixes for film.

PE

Would that mean that it would work quickly or just be a very complete bleaching process without worries of under bleaching?
Thanks!

Typos made on a tiny phone...

Rudeofus · Jul 24, 2015

Assuming these instructions apply to your product, page 7 states that BLIX working solution of this type lasts for 4-8 weeks. That's significantly less than Tetenal's BLIX, but sounds still useful.

Rudeofus · Jul 24, 2015

trythis said:
Am I to buy potassium bromide in powder form and mix to some concentration of it and substitute it for BX-B. Or just add a some quantity of powder to the dilution of BX-A and water.

For one liter of bleach you need

200 ml BX part A concentrate
50-100 grams Potassium Bromide
some Acetic Acid for pH adjustment
some Sodium Bicarbonate for guestimating pH if you have no pH meter

Mix the BX part A and the Potassium Bromide into 700 ml tap water, stir until the Potassium Bromide is completely dissolved, then top off with tap water to make one liter. Then do the pH adjustment with Acetic Acid and Sodium Bicarbonate as described in my article text. Since you live in the US, you can get all the required chems from Photo Formulary.

trythis said:
Would that mean that it would work quickly or just be a very complete bleaching process without worries of under bleaching?

Expect the bleach process to take about six minutes at 38°C/100°F. You can't overbleach, but underbleaching would be very bad.

Photo Engineer · Jul 24, 2015

The blix, the bleach and the fix should work quickly, but as a blix should have a shorter life span than most blixes and as a bleach then fix should have a rather normal life span. This can be a year or more unmixed as two parts, a bleach then fix.

PE

rbultman · Aug 7, 2015

The instructions for the Arista E-6 kit have 3 parts for the blix, ammonium thiosulfate, tetraacetic acid EDTA, and acetic acid. None of these have "ferriic" in them. Can I make bleach with this? I assume the ammonium thiosulfate is the fixer. Is the middle one the bleach? What is the acetic acid for?

This kit does not include a separate stabilizer or rinse. The instructions include a final wash with water. Is there anything in the blix that acts as the stabilizer?

Thanks,
Rob

Photo Engineer · Aug 7, 2015

Rob, this blix must contain "Ferric" ion or it will not bleach the film. If one part is blood red, that contains the Ferric part and it is unlisted for some reason.

As for the stabilzer / final rinse, the kit is incomplete.

PE

RPC · Aug 7, 2015

IIRC, EDTA is ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid. So there is some redundancy in "tetraacetic acid EDTA". In the blix ingredients I have seen it is usually listed as Ferric Ammonium EDTA.

rbultman · Aug 7, 2015

I noticed that too. The MSDS is available on written request. That will probably have more info, I assume.

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destroya · Aug 7, 2015

stupid question. I have the separate bleach and fix for C41, the kodak flexicolor SM chemicals. what adjustments would I need to do to use the bleach for E-6? its this one

Kodak Flexicolor SM (C-41SM) Tank Bleach
https://www.uniquephoto.com/kodak-f...ach-for-color-negative-film-makes-2-7-8824690

also, what would the shelf life of this be? I heard somewhere but cant remember where, that it needs some air to rejuvenate it. this sounds to simple, but what do I know.

thanks

john

Rudeofus · Aug 8, 2015

Rob, this Arista BLIX part B is described as containing (Ethylenedinitrillo) tetraacetic acid, to which the commonly used abbreviation EDTA is appended. My impression is that the instructions mention only the compounds that have to be listed in the MSDS anyway, and Ammonium Ferric EDTA seems to be harmless enough to avoid being mentioned in many MSDS. If this image is an indication, then my bets are that the Ammonium Ferric EDTA component is indeed contained in blix part B.

I would therefore use the following instructions to convert this Arista E-6 kit into a bleach&fixer kit:

Dissolve 50 - 100 g of either Ammonium or Potassium Bromide in 600ml water.
Add 250ml of blix part B to this mix
Fill up with water to make 1l
Then use blix part C instead of Acetic Acid for pH adjustment as described in my article in section 4.2
Ditch blix part A (or use it diluted 1:4 for B&W work) and use a neutral fixer like TF-5 or Tetenal Superfix Odorless.

Rudeofus · Aug 8, 2015

John, the product page you linked to is quite odd. Evidently Kodak markets both separate bleach and fixer, and a BLIX for C-41. Separate bleach and fix need only one concentrate per bath, whereas BLIX usually needs two concentrates. The image on that Unique Photo site looks very much like the set of concentrates to make BLIX (one bottle containing a deep red liquid, the other bottle looks mostly colorless), whereas the same page states "bleach" all over the place.

If you, for whatever reason, end up with the set of BLIX concentrates, I would expect that you can follow the procedure laid out in this article. Ideally you would not even get the fixer part of this set.

The separate bleach concentrates uses Ammonium Ferric PDTA as oxidizer, and you need to be aware that E-6 products are not rated for this more powerful oxidizer. I have seen nice results, and many people use the even stronger oxidizer Potassium Ferricyanide, but you are basically on your own with this bleach and E-6. Chances are it will work just fine.

graflexboy · Aug 8, 2015

The bottles of the Arista E-6 kit do tell a bit more information than the Safety Notes on the back panel of the instruction sheet:

Micah in NC
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Converting C-41/E-6 BLIX into Separate Bleach and Fixer

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